Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's also possible to reduce the use of carbon based fuels. We know how to do that.
Currently to do it properly it's by killing poor people.
I don't think so, our CO2 emissions aren't coming from the poor.
Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
151–160 of 254 posts
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solar, wind and nuclear kill poor people?
Telling poor people that the only power they are allowed to have is too expensive for them to afford does result in their having shorter lifespans. Energy is one of the keys to modernity; you can't power an MRI machine with UN-subsidized corn. If you provide them with solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal, tidal, or possibly fusion power at costs lower than or equal to organic fuels, they will not suffer (and might benefi…
Lack of MRI scanners doesn't shorten life spans significantly, lack of clean water and good nutrition is what's significant.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Jesus! I'm glad people don't take that stand in other areas of science. If we did that 20 years ago we never would have found out that ulcers are caused by bacteria. "Ulcers aren't caused by stress, they are caused by bacteria!" "Heresy!! String him up!!!"
Bacteria-ulcers weren't proven by people who really really really wanted them to be true, they were proven by a doctor, using (fairly unconventional) scientific methods. If you've got compelling historical sources for holocaust denial or compelling scientific evidence against climate change, let's see it.
The problem is that there are lots of people that really really want climate change (or rather its effects) to be true. Just look here in this thread people willing to swear that hurricane activity has increased due to global warming, while there is no evidence yet that this has happened ( https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/ ).
Before your automatic downvote, I'm not denying climate change and some of its future effects (maybe even catastrophic). But the fact that it's happening doesn't explain or justify why people seem so eager to see its effects in everything even without a scientific proof whatsoever.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the common sentiment is 'the best time to take action was 40 years ago. The absolute limit was 20 years ago. There's no stopping it now My impression is that this is the latest fallback position intended to stop/delay us from acting (I don't know that the parent commenter intends it that way; this isn't a criticism of them). In rough order: 1) There is no global warming 2) There is global warming, but it's not caus…
You forgot the people who are global warming enthusiasts. They say things like, "CO2 is plant food, and we'll have a boom of farming productivity."
I'm sure I read that plant coverage of the earth has increased by 14% since we started pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. Unfortunately the consensus seemed to be we are at or near the peak of this effect.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#155Why the Chicken Little sky-is-falling panic? By the time the Earth freezes over or turns into a dustball (or whatever other disastrous scenario you envision):
a) we'll have AI that can solve the climate problem cost-effectively, or
b) we will pass our legacy on to our AI descendants, just like in the movie "A.I. Artificial Intelligence", where, at the end humans are extinct and Manhattan is buried under a glacier. Nice pic - a friend thinks Spielberg may have pegged the future (but I doubt it).
Worst case: our AI descendents inherit human social characteristics that render them panic-ridden morons who irritate each other with endless whiny propositions about possible bad futures.
I hate this: a friend was once a decent conversationalist. Now he constantly harps on global warming. He believes that, because Trump was elected, we'll have category 8 hurricanes, the Atlantic will freeze over in the next 3 years and all coastal cities will be underwater in 7 years. Since the election my friend's brain has become like Dr. Who's tardis: more bullshit has come out of it than can be explained by modern physics. You simply can't believe the crap his mind is generating.
Is there some new push/funding or alarmist bulletin in the AGW community to get out and proselytize for AGW that is feeding his frenzy?
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, absolutely.
This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms.
> This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms.
The problem isn't trying to socialize them.
Their beliefs are a matter of faith and as such is not something they are willing to seriously question without help. You simply cannot "socialize" this problem away. The reality is, these are people who genuinely caught up in a web of charismatic con artists and unfortunately we reality is we will not be more effective than professionals. I have friends who I interact with daily who support Trump and socializing with them it has become clear they take dogma over facts. And I don't mean things that are heavily politicized like Climate Change. I mean, literally, year old events that have dozens of news articles (including multiple right-wing sources) they choose to disbelieve over their chosen charismatic leader on YouTube and Right Wing Radio.
This isn't something you can fix with socialization. This is a willing blindness of cult followers who have been decieved.
https://cultnews.com/2015/01/how-do-you-deprogram-a-scientol...
> Deprogramming a current member of Scientology would depend upon the concern and support of family and friends.
> a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
> a process [Lifton calls] coercive persuasion or thought reform;
> economic exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
1) They felt vulnerable and they were losing ground in what they believe is a religious war on "their" belief system by Cultural Marxists / PC / Liberal culture. They feel that old institutions that they value have been weakened or destroyed outright. (i.e. Marriage) They rely on charismatic leaders to focus their worship. (i.e. Trump, Rush Limbaugh, Milo)
2) The "cult" has created a filter bubble in which cult members discuss things among themselves and assume all outside influences are heretics acting in bad faith to lure them away from the light. (i.e. They attack credentialed experts while holding up small minority opinions that are not the views of almost all experts in that field of study) People who act against this are ostracized by the party, called cucks, RINOs, etc. (i.e. Right wing talk radio, Alex Jones, Blogspam, Fox News Opinion Shows)
3) The "cult" acts against the economic best interests of the majority of its members and instead focus on servicing the needs of its ruling coterie of donors. (i.e. It focuses on servicing the needs of the wealthy donors and their beliefs.)
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bacteria-ulcers weren't proven by people who really really really wanted them to be true, they were proven by a doctor, using (fairly unconventional) scientific methods. If you've got compelling historical sources for holocaust denial or compelling scientific evidence against climate change, let's see it.
The problem is that there are lots of people that really really want climate change (or rather its effects) to be true. Just look here in this thread people willing to swear that hurricane activity has increased due to global warming, while there is no evidence yet that this has happened ( https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/ ). Before your automatic downvote, I'm not denying climate change and so…
If the problem is that that makes other people ignore overwhelming scientific evidence, those ignoring the evidence are no less dangerous and ignorant.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#158Why the Chicken Little sky-is-falling panic? By the time the Earth freezes over or turns into a dustball (or whatever other disastrous scenario you envision): a) we'll have AI that can solve the climate problem cost-effectively, or b) we will pass our legacy on to our AI descendants, just like in the movie "A.I. Artificial Intelligence", where, at the end humans are extinct and Manhattan is buried under a glacier. Ni…
The problem is that the effects of rising sea-levels alone will be pretty bad in our lifetime.
For the good portion of people that live in reality, and not a sci-fi world that doesn't exist or they'll never be able to afford, a rise in global temperatures is a bad thing.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms.
> This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms. The problem isn't…
I never said it would be easy. All I'm saying is to shout them down and ridicule them is going to make the problem worse. Socializing is a good first time. Keep talking to them. Try not to lose your cool. It's hard.. it's really hard. I know people who are Trump fans and are caught up in one aspect that they like about him. Be it ant-immigration or whatever. I do my best to make them think I'm actively accepting their views.. then I do my best to talk about some stuff here and there..if I get them to acknowledge one flaw in their thinking then I see that as a positive. Its going to take years..decades and luck.
Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms.
I'm not American; I have been embittered by the influence the USA has on our world and the relative lack of agency in influencing American actions that the rest of the world exhibits. I'm ready for another two terms; from the outside looking in I expected continuance of the bombs dropping, the climate talks to continue to end in toothless agreements, the off-shoring of abysmal labour conditions to continue unabated,…
I too would suspect Bernie Sanders would have had some military events. I'm not saying either side is perfect. I am saying that shouting down at one group is not going to solve the problem. Especially if half the nation doesn't believe in climate change and typically more apt to vote than their liberal counterparts.