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A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

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Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#151
When the Rolling Stones did their last tour in 1981 --those were still the days when rock and rollers hoped to die before their geriatric years and The Who would perform their Final Tour just a year later -- the tickets (at least in the US) were by mail and via lottery. Payment was with cashier's check only and only two tickets per order. [1]

It would still work today. For fans with money, it would be less convenient than buying through a scalper. It would be more convenient than TicketMaster since ordinary fans cannot buy tickets through it anyway. It would raise costs for scalping businesses and somewhat level the playing field (it is impossible to completely level a playing field between individuals and well capitalized businesses).

Anyway, TicketMaster's business has changed less than the music industry and get off my lawn.

[1]: The price was an outrageous $16 each. But it was also the days of festival seating and the best seat in the house was a matter of will. Down on the stadium field, over the course of the day we had worked our way to within ten feet of the stage by the time the Stones opened with their new hit single, "Start Me Up." No really, get off my lawn.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#152
post #142

Big artists, that have gigs where tickets cost the best part of $100 (I'm UK based and I'm converting what we'd pay for big name artists gigs from GBP to USD) are saying they have 10X the demand of people wanting to see them than the stadiums can take.... ...wow that sounds like an awesome problem to solve! Like play 10 dates, or if that is too tiring, maybe they could let a lot of people watch live on VR headsets fo…

I really don't see the point of a live concert VR. The experience will be completely different. Releasing a well recorded and edited version once per tour makes much more sense to me. The ticket problem needs to be solved but it won't when you have the biggest ticket sellers (Ticketmaster) owning marketplaces for second-hand tickets. I recently read one of these companies was buying tickets and then putting them on t…

It isn't that I don't appreciate your point about a live VR concert being different, and right now if I simply put on a VR headset and was there (without any other tweaks at all) there would be a limit to how 'cool' it would be. That said, I'm a Radiohead fan, if they offered an option to go to a rare gig to see them play, in VR (either VR or nothing) I would certainly consider it. If you then said that VR technology is going to continue to improve, and I'll be able to sit there with my friends, watching the band, taking virtual photographcs of the band, optionally discussing the show with others, etc. maybe it starts to actually start getting quite interesting.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#153
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a better solution imo, but that assumes a perfectly flexible supply of venue space that often isn't there in practice. When it is, I also imagine the price is free to scale exponentially with venue size. Also, say there simply aren't enough teenagers to make it reach an equilibrium point on price alone. This method still ignores the fact that the artist might want to optimize for something other than ticket re…

>Also, say there simply aren't enough teenagers to make it reach an equilibrium point on price alone. If there are scalpers, that means there are more people who want to come than seats available. If the price is, say, $50, then there's a certain number of people who would buy at $50. If that number of seats is made available, then the scalper incentive disappears. >A sold out venue of trendy twenty-something's is ca…

It makes the market for the tickets more efficient, but that isn't what the artists are optimizing for. They want to be able to sacrifice ticket revenue for exposure. Maybe they want to select their audience for hardcore fans willing to spend time on getting tickets rather than money, maybe that translates into better brand referrals because it selects more devoted fans.

You're more okay with barring people over 25 and allowing scalping than disallowing scalping? Ideally, yes, the venue would resize to meet the needs of the artist, but this has already become a very complicated calculus, one possibly without the same solution space since there are a small number of fixed sized venues. It could simply be impossible to get the same audience by these methods.

> If the price is, say, $50, then there's a certain number of people who would buy at $50. If that number of seats is made available, then the scalper incentive disappears.

Right, but this assumes that there isn't an equivalently sized population of people willing to pay more that will buy them instead. My argument is that audiences aren't interchangable and that real harm is done when you force the artist to select the audience on ability to pay alone, as you are proposing.

Also, nothing says the scalpers get it right. They just go out of buisiness or make a loss if they don't. That doesn't stop them from getting it wrong and hurting the artist and the fans in the process.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#154
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if I'm an artist who wants to ensure that fans without a lot of money can see me? Which fans without a lot of money? How do they get picked? Lottery? Who can click the fastest? Who has no job and can stand in line for days?

Release a gratis band-themed mobile game, with user ID tied to the phone owner. In this app, allow the user to collect a free sweepstakes entry, with a 60 minute cooldown timer, to a maximum of 8 entries per calendar day. Whenever concert tickets go on sale, reserve a block on the floor from the Nth row to the back of the floor. (We all know that the spots all the way up front are for the groupies, superfans, and ric…

Buy a bunch of cheap phones, farm out or automate playing the app. Sell the winning phones for profit.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ticketmaster celebrates scalpers.

Yup. They just want to be the scalpers

They already are to some extent:

http://www.thembj.org/2013/10/ticketmaster-and-the-business-...

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#156
Ticketmaster is actually a fairly unusual market in that it discriminates based on speed, which is pretty unusual in our market economy where things are usually discriminated based on price. As long as this structural difference exists there will always be an incentive to arbitrage the market, whether those arbitrageurs are one person or a thousand, bots or Turks or employees. Everyone seems to get morally outraged about this, but I've yet to see anyone suggest an alternative system that solves the underlying issue of incentives. Most bans and limits are ineffective because they are at odds with the incentives of Ticketmaster. Do you make secondary markets illegal? What if someone can't go? Just balancing the incentives is a tricky issue to say nothing of finding the optimal balance of fair.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#157

> "There's an emotional aspect to what artists do, which is to say 'I'm not willing to charge $500 even though clearly the market value is $500. I'm going to charge $100, and at the end of the day someone else is going to make that money,'" The bots are just a symptom. Seems like this is likely the root of the problem. If the primary market was efficient, then there would be no secondary market, and the whole point o…

Ok, the problem seems like a clear-cut supply-and-demand one. So if artists don't want to look like a bunch of greedy jerks selling tickets for $500+ apiece, and there's only so many seats in the venue, why not increase the number of shows? Maybe the venue is too booked-up and the artists get too tired playing the same venue 5 days in a row and being on the road 5x as long, but it's a thought.

The other question I have is: decades ago, concert tickets didn't cost this much, even after adjusting for inflation, and that's when rock bands were in their prime. What happened? I'm pretty sure it didn't cost the equivalent of $500 to see Led Zeppelin in concert in the early/mid 70s, so why does it cost so much to see U2 (an old band now) in 2017?

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#158
As others have pointed out here, a lottery system with ID can help beat this. Pearl Jam's fan club ticket sales require you to choose ahead of time which concerts you want to go to (max 2 tickets per show) and then on lottery day, you're informed if you won or not and your card is charged. Although a bit opaque, it does make it harder to game the system.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#159

Here in Japan it's quite common to have ticket lotteries and ID checks for certain popular/easily oversold artists. Better odds are given to early-bird applicants and fanclub members. Why is that so hard to implement?

Live Nation and its ticket distributor Ticketmaster consistently promote scarcity by diverting the majority of tickets into the hands of resellers like TicketsNow, which is a Ticketmaster subsidiary so they can get the full demand rate in the secondary market. The artist gets a cut of this, it's all a scheme and nobody at Ticketmaster cares about the bots who fight over the tiny amount of released tickets. Artists kn…

In most cases, they aren't diverting tickets directly to TicketsNow, and if they are, it's a select few. They don't need to. They sell to the public, which includes resellers (whether they be fans or brokers), and that public then sells the tickets on TicketsNow, which show up as verified resale tickets on the ticketmaster/livenation website if barcodes are supplied (or you sell directly out of your ticketmaster account). You can actually list and sell some tickets this way prior to them being available to download, as it syncs the token for the purchase and sells that, and delivers when the tickets are actually issued (tickets routinely have a delayed delivery now).

Ticketmaster makes money on every sale (fees, as well as 7%-12% of the sale amount) so it's not like they are really losing anything this way. In fact, they may make more money, since even if the tickets sell at a premium on resale, if they don't sell for more than the cut the exchange takes, the broker still loses money (which ends up in the hands of the exchange).

It is true that some artists and venues are more amenable to this than others though. Some allow the ticketmaster sanctioned secondary market (TM+), and some don't.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#160
post #125
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However justifiable it might be, this ticket gouging is the reason I haven't seen a concert in almost a decade. Maybe I'm a cheap bastard because I refuse to pay hundreds for the few decent artists I've seen on tour, but it's not that I don't have the money. The first NIN concert I went to, I only had to steer clear of certain mosh-pits. The last one I had to put up with a sea of "brighter than the stage" phones uphe…

Your first two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. Is it the prices you're bothered by or the phones you're bothered by? They're two very different issues. Indeed I suspect if the primary market prices were higher we'd see less use of phones.

It's not contradictory at all. He's complaining about the prices, and then pointing out that the concert experience, even after paying a boatload for tickets, is very sub-par because of the bad behavior by other concertgoers.

If the high ticket prices guaranteed him a first-class concert experience (no bright cellphones in the air, etc.) then at least the high prices would have some justification. But as it is, they don't when the experience is so poor.

Usually, with other luxury goods and services, the prices are outrageous, but at least you can count on a premium experience. You're not going to buy a Bentley car and get the same crappy treatment you get at a Chevy dealership, for instance.

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