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Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

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Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#151

Post by rootlocus »

bigbugbag wrote: post #143
Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

Funny that I also came up with the 15 pixels value in my answer to steveperkins, though I second guessed myself and replaced it by "few" pixels. Is it 15 pixels really a valid approximation ?

This is how teachers spot cheaters on tests. And no, 30 pixels is a better approximation.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#152

Post by rootlocus »

StavrosK wrote: post #122
Fnoord wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The browser browses the internet. You mean 'the World Wide Web' [1] since 'the Internet' includes other protocols than HTTP(S) such as SMTP, POP3, and IMAP. Nowadays, Node is everywhere. Slack, using JavaScript, is replacing IRC. One of the best e-mail clients is Nylas N1 which uses JavaScript under the hood. Hyper is a terminal using JavaScript. Discord is becoming the defacto standard for VoIP gaming, and uses Ja…

> The UIs work very well. Maybe on your top-of-the-line computer. On my two-year-old Macbook Air, browsing the web is pure frustration, because everything is slow. Don't even get me started on how inferior Slack is compared to a local IRC client.

Kind of off-topic, but is a two year old Mackbook Air having problems with just browsing the web? Because if it's not a "top-of-the-line computer", it sure costs more than one.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#153

Post by Aoyagi »

StevePerkins wrote: post #128
Aoyagi wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I just don't WANT a re-implementation of Opera from 15 years ago. I'm sorry, but desktop email is dead for most of us. Well, those "most of you" clearly are not the target audience. And you're not the majority either, I should add. Sounds like you just want Chrome, to be frank.

Nope. Like I said, I use Opera: * It still has a more impressive array of power user features than Chrome or Firefoxv * It's sync service is more reliable than the other two. * It works with Chrome extensions, and has no compatibility issues with websites (unless a site is stupid enough to check with User-Agent headers, and those can be spoofed with an extension in the worst-case). * Last but not least, Opera has the…

>I use Opera

You might want to be more specific than that. Are you using version 12 or earlier, or 15 and later (currently sitting at about 43)?

>Opera has the best mobile browser on the planet

I haven't checked recently, but last I remember you couldn't disable Opera Turbo.

>don't just be Opera 12.1 forever out of spite

Well, Vivaldi already has some features O12 does not have, while at the same time not having some features O12 does have (Dragonfly, IRC, nice page info, etc.) and probably never getting those...

Again, you don't seem like the audience Vivaldi targets to.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#154

Post by rootlocus »

StevePerkins wrote: post #46

I check in on Vivaldi every few months to see how it's coming along, and there are some things that I like. However, I think they're a bit TOO fixated on Opera as it was 15 years ago. I keep waiting for bookmark sync, which today is a fundamental browser feature rather than a nice-to-have. But the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature fe…

> Another example is right-clicking a link in Vivaldi, to open it in a new tab.

I've always used the middle click to open a new tab in background. Vivaldi has the same behavior in this regard.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#155

Post by gurkendoktor »

SyneRyder wrote: post #98
grzm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My tiny email list (at indieconference.com) has 8% of my subscribers using Apple Mail, and 75% still use desktop/laptop for checking email. Does this breakdown take into account the OS? Is that 8% of macOS subscribers running Apple Mail, or of all subscribers? I'm unfamiliar with what data you have avialable, so I'm not sure if this is even possible. Thanks for the link to emailclientmarketshare.com. As you noted, Ap…

Oh, I meant 8% of all subscribers use Apple Mail. It isn't 8% of macOS users, but 8% of any device. So the percentage of Mac users with Apple Mail would be higher than 8%. You could try calculating something similar with the Email Client Marketshare figures: remove all the iPhone / iPad / Android / Windows clients and calculate from what's left. If I do that I estimate 15 - 20% of macOS folks using Apple Mail, with t…

> remove all the iPhone / iPad / Android / Windows clients and calculate from what's left

Does it say anywhere if "Gmail" refers to only the web app, or if that includes the native apps for iOS and Android?

Edit: This blog post explains the grouping. All native email clients on the iPhone count as "iPhone", not just Apple Mail.

https://litmus.com/blog/mobile-holds-at-56-for-october-email...

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#156

Post by StevePerkins »

Tomis02 wrote: post #141
StevePerkins wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, you CAN get to the common behavior by clicking an item further down on the context menu... or by pressing some unholy keyboard combination. But to be frank, it's clunky and I'm simply not going to bother so long as Opera is being actively developed. If Opera did stop, or turned into Chinese malware or something, then I would probably just jump over to Firefox and use plugins for the most Opera-like experience…

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return.

If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there.

Yes, you CAN do these things in Vivaldi... by using three-finger keyboard shortcuts, scrolling further down in a context menu, or using a wonky middle mouse button that most non-Solaris users never use.

I'm a bit perplexed by the response, though. This is Hacker News. We nod in approval as people reject text editors over the most obscure and trivial of UX preferences. We anticipate that when a blog link is posted, half of the discussion will revolve around its font kerning rather than its content. Etc.

So here you have a web browser, the application that most of us spend the overwhelming majority of our computer-time using. It's primary marketing pitch is extensive support for customization. It has some UX quirks that are out of step with the other major browsers, and it's baffled that anyone might want to customize that.

Hey, implement the suggestion or not, that's their call. But dismissing a customization out-of-hand as "incorrect" sure does cut against its own marketing. I think that's a bigger deal than my 15 pixels. It's an indication that the real goal is creating the perfect successor for Opera 12 die-hards. Which is awesome for that tiny group of individuals, but I don't think it's going to lead to any serious traction beyond them.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#157

Post by morganvachon »

bigbugbag wrote: post #142
StevePerkins wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, you CAN get to the common behavior by clicking an item further down on the context menu... or by pressing some unholy keyboard combination. But to be frank, it's clunky and I'm simply not going to bother so long as Opera is being actively developed. If Opera did stop, or turned into Chinese malware or something, then I would probably just jump over to Firefox and use plugins for the most Opera-like experience…

I wonder what you are talking about, Opera did stop and turned into a Chrome clone which brought vivaldi and otter into existence to close the gap it left. I don't get Where the extra click you are talking about is, either click on open in new tab or open in background tab, same number of click. I'm not sure what kind of customization you are asking for, you want to remove the choice of opening in background tab ? Wh…

> I don't get Where the extra click you are talking about is, either click on open in new tab or open in background tab, same number of click.

Vivaldi: right click -> "Open in new tab" = two clicks

Chrome: right click -> "Open in new tab" -> click the newly opened tab = three clicks

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#158

Post by rootlocus »

StevePerkins wrote: post #156
Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

> a wonky middle mouse button that most non-Solaris users never use.

I've read through your other comments in this thread, and while most of them contain some form of generalization or another, to me this is the most baffling.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#159

Post by morganvachon »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #58
StevePerkins wrote: post #46

I check in on Vivaldi every few months to see how it's coming along, and there are some things that I like. However, I think they're a bit TOO fixated on Opera as it was 15 years ago. I keep waiting for bookmark sync, which today is a fundamental browser feature rather than a nice-to-have. But the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature fe…

Almost everyone I know using email for business uses a desktop client - usually Mac Mail, sometimes thunderbird. A new client that isn't quite so neglected would be very welcome.

Another use case is someone like me. I absolutely love Fastmail's web client, it's better than any other web client I've used including Gmail. However, I also have a few email addresses for domains that I own, and I don't want to deal with clunky forwarding; I prefer to use them as-is. For those it's much, much easier to use a good desktop client rather than set up and maintain Roundcube or even SquirrelMail on my servers.

Windows 10's Mail app is not quite up to the task; it's fine for Outlook.com webmail but I need something much more powerful on Windows without having to buy Outlook proper (on Linux this obviously isn't an issue, there is a wealth of good desktop email clients for X and the console). So far I've been doing well with Thunderbird, but I'm tempted to give Vivaldi a shot since I was always a fan of Opera's email integration.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#160

Post by rubber_duck »

Tomis02 wrote: post #119
StevePerkins wrote: post #46

I check in on Vivaldi every few months to see how it's coming along, and there are some things that I like. However, I think they're a bit TOO fixated on Opera as it was 15 years ago. I keep waiting for bookmark sync, which today is a fundamental browser feature rather than a nice-to-have. But the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature fe…

Man, I really miss the skins in Opera 12, there were some gorgeous ones. I agree that the email client is not necessarily a priority, however > Every other major browser opens the link in a background tab, keeping the focus in the tab you're currently on. Oh wow, that's pretty bad for every other major browser. We have two use cases: 1) I want to open the link in a new tab and switch focus (presumably to read right n…

>I want to open the link in a new tab and switch focus (presumably to read right now)

So click the link and read it - if you want to go back use the back button. I think 2) is by far more common for me and makes sense as a default - but maybe that's just because I got used to it.

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