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Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

bbc.co.uk

151–160 of 170 posts

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has at least one mechanism against that: the first amendment. Content and format are both matters of speech, so the choice of format and the decision to broadcast noise as a statement are both protected. I expect that will come under attack, but it's a very fundamental part of US law used unambiguously. So we might also see civil war 2 before they get that legally changed.

I don't believe enough people would care enough about it to start a civil war. I think what needs to happen is, instead of going into IT management at 40, where we do more harm than good anyway, we start running for office until the government is full of experienced tech people.

This! And talk to your representative / MP / whatever and tell them how important this is. Often they just don't know and they hear from people who have control+profit based agendas.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say one nation, Uruguay, says "you know what ? Encryption is fine. And btw we're funding 1gb cheap fiber to everyone in our biggest city". Something like that could attract swarms of techies. It could, but it probably won't, because hardly anyone is going to move to a new country just so they can enjoy encryption and fast web browsing...and I say that as someone who has moved internationally 6 times. Look, your…

While it is true that people (besides the very rich and very desperate) usually don't try and migrate to escape laws, corporations do it all the time and think about it proactively. It is particularly easy for technology companies to say, great I'll do all my hosting in Uruguay instead of Britain, make my terms of service under Uruguayan law, etc. If Uruguay becomes a criminal sanctuary--then sure maybe it will be os…

I agree in principle but in practice this doesn't seem to be working out terribly well lately. Money generally trumps scruples on any even slightly complex issue that can't be reduced to slogans.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#153
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the first amendment It took great effort to get crypto even recognized under the first amendment -- the USGov kept insisting that source code was not speech. In the 1990s it was against the law to let foreign nationals have access to the source code to DES. If you had folks from overseas in your organization, technically you couldn't let them see the source for crypto in your product (e.g., you had to wall off piec…

This can be partially fixed by printing the code on a tshirt. https://www.wired.com/2000/08/court-to-address-decss-t-shirt...

Or by printing it in a book. There's LOTS of reluctance to ban actual, physical books in the US (and plenty of reasons that any ban would be struck down).

That said, up to the mid 90s it was theoretically against the law to show a foreign national a printed-out copy of DES. Crazy. I think it was published in magazines . . .

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development, already dominated by tech behemoths, will become completely out of reach of small development teams simply because the regulatory burden is so high. It might sound OT to bring up TPP in a discussion like this, but please hear me out: It's important to block broad international agreements like TPP because it creates competition among nations that would protect us from the dystopia you describe.…

Let's say one nation, Uruguay, says "you know what ? Encryption is fine. And btw we're funding 1gb cheap fiber to everyone in our biggest city". Something like that could attract swarms of techies. It could, but it probably won't, because hardly anyone is going to move to a new country just so they can enjoy encryption and fast web browsing...and I say that as someone who has moved internationally 6 times. Look, your…

> things like child porn and terrorism

Good thing there are laws against rape and mass murder.

> hardly anyone is going to move to a new country just so they can enjoy encryption and fast web browsing

You can't know that, not until we live in an age where the mere act of communicating is a crime. Thats taking surveillance state to a new level. I'm sure some people wont even care, just like how many Britons dont apparently care about their new big brother laws, but there will always be people who care about their natural rights.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say one nation, Uruguay, says "you know what ? Encryption is fine. And btw we're funding 1gb cheap fiber to everyone in our biggest city". Something like that could attract swarms of techies. It could, but it probably won't, because hardly anyone is going to move to a new country just so they can enjoy encryption and fast web browsing...and I say that as someone who has moved internationally 6 times. Look, your…

> things like child porn and terrorism Good thing there are laws against rape and mass murder. > hardly anyone is going to move to a new country just so they can enjoy encryption and fast web browsing You can't know that, not until we live in an age where the mere act of communicating is a crime. Thats taking surveillance state to a new level. I'm sure some people wont even care, just like how many Britons dont appar…

Laws against rape and murder facilitate the prosecution of those crimes, but not necessarily the investigation. Furthermore, the trade in child porn is not legally the same as the crime of rape, but does have measurable negative effects.

As for people moving, I certainly can know that if we're talking about existing and imminently foreseeable conditions. That you need to posit a completely alternative reality where the act of communicating is a crime suggests your argument is fundamentally weak. I'm pointing out the demonstrable lack of interest under current and historical conditions. Available evidence suggests that people are pretty attached to places and prefer to undertake clandestine activity rather than just up and go somewhere else short of a stark existential risk.

Do I know this to be true in the epistemological sense, of course not. Am I pretty damn sure about it in an empirical sense, yes I am. I've moved repeatedly and feel little or no emotional attachment to my birth family - in fact the farther away from them the better I like it. But this is really really unusual. the vast majority of people are intensely concerned with maintaining their family ties even at significant economic/political cost. Just because I don't share that mindset doesn't mean I can blind myself to it.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#156

Having visited England recently, despite the surveillance engine being prepped in the US, the contrast of the extent and the lack of rights and legal means in the UK to protect the people from bad laws like this was palpable. So look at it this way, at least you don't live there. If we keep headed in the same direction though it won't be long before we forget all the reasons for the American Revolution and let the gl…

Seems doubtful that the founding fathers and revolutionists thought their "oaths" to the crown meant much either. I don't want to join any empire, but I would advocate for globalism, which I don't believe is the same thing as imperialism. I guess I may just be one of those treacherous Americans though.

The monarchy had repeatedly violated the patriots (uncodified) constitutional rights, their common law rights, and their natural rights. The legal debate became the American Revolution, and America won. Furthermore, many of the sons of liberty had never signed or taken oaths of allegiance to the monarchy.

Some of them did take oaths of allegiance though, so you actually touch upon a very interesting subject that I think would be worth having a more nuanced conversation about. So thanks for spurring me to think further on the matter.

So far, the main thing I can think of is that part of the oaths of allegiance include duty, not just to the monarch but to the laws which create that monarch, therefor I find the view of the The European Court of Human Rights retrospectively insightful in that it ruled that the oath of allegiance to a reigning monarch is "reasonably viewed as an affirmation of loyalty to the constitutional principles which support... the workings of representative democracy in the respondent State."

Now, if you want to advocate against the constitution, as long as it is just speech, that is legal (as long as you are simply a citizen and haven't taken an oath), but I would agree it is treacherous, but not traitorous or treasonous. The second speech becomes action, particularly to assist a foreign entity in that venture though, it does become treason. I highly disagree with the sedition laws which violate the first amendment and have been so harshly abused even in the modern era, so I am ignoring those for the sake of conversation.

You said you "don't want to join any empire, but I would advocate for globalism, which I don't believe is the same thing as imperialism." I would simply say I think you are wrong and provably so on this point, in that the current trend of globalism is indeed an imperial globalism.

That being said, I will admit that I have often had the conversation about the utopic version of globalism, but it is important to differentiate between that imagined ideal which I think you might be referring to, and the reality of the current global geo-political movement of globalism (which is quite different from the economic fact of globalism, which I don't think is up for dispute).

If you want, I am willing to expand on the more technical reasons I think that current global is imperial globalism.

I wish I could edit my gp comment, because I was obviously wrong to say : "Of course, any American who advocates for such a thing is traitorous, "

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#157

> "Terrorists and serious criminals will always seek to avoid detection. You mean like by using completely unencrypted SMS to plan terror attacks[0]. Also, "world-leading" my arse. [0]: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after...

They're not looking for actual terrorists, otherwise the SMS's would have triggered a response. They're looking for people like Occupy Wall Street protesters, who actually pose a threat (ie. redistribution of wealth) to those in power.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#158
post #11
post #4

One option is to hide your internet history, the other is to automate it (including signing up for and logging in to sites you don't necessarily visit) so that your machine is logging 24/7 and your small portion gets lost in the haystack

> your small portion gets lost in the haystack This is not a good security method in this day and age. It is cheap to watch and alert on everything.

This is not true, for instance say you're an oppressive government and have a method to decrypt encryption type X (https, E2E encryption or what-have-you). There's only so many times you can use your decryption alg for evil purposes before someone leaks that you have it. Https is infinitely better than http, E2E encryption is infinitely better than nothing.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#159

A majority wont care since it has nothing to do with Britain got Talent or Goglebox A minority will be pushed to use proxies and vpn's which will flag them for closer examination Everything is going according to plan so...

Don't give up... the internet will always fight back one way or another. Maybe you can be a part of that.

Re: Tech firms seek to frustrate internet history log law

#160
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely self-incrimination laws make this a non-starter?

In UK you can already go to prison for 2 years if you refuse to hand over your encryption keys.

In case anyone wanted to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_King...
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