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U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#151
post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

I totally get you, but then the question is: do you need to get into a "top" and super-expensive college to get a good education in humanities and abstract art and similar? Because, unless you're rich or get a very good scholarship, I guess that going to that kind of college makes sense only if you plan to pursue a high-paying career.

Harvard and company are doing massive amounts of needs-based scholarships now. If you are a high-flying middle class person you can probably pay either nothing or very little. They have massive endowments, to the tune of many tens of billions of dollars, they can fund their operation out of the interest.

On the other hand this benefits them as an institution since they can soak those legacy students for every hundred-thousand that daddy is worth and let them coast through on the reputation of those high-flyers.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#152
post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

I totally get you, but then the question is: do you need to get into a "top" and super-expensive college to get a good education in humanities and abstract art and similar? Because, unless you're rich or get a very good scholarship, I guess that going to that kind of college makes sense only if you plan to pursue a high-paying career.

Backwards. Top colleges have the best need-based financial aid. You rack up enormous debt at average colleges (or by going to a top college when your parents could pay for it but won't).

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#153

Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…

I'd like to propose a different option, one that would actually solve a lot of the current problems in the USA ... before posting a response, please read the 'why' section below.

- The government stops guaranteeing student debt to banks

- Students are allowed to declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt after N number of years, if they can prove that they're financially unable to pay & the market will not bear a salary high enough to service their debt for someone with their degree

- (optionally) The government stops subsidizing student loan interest

Why?

- If banks are liable to lose the capital in the loan, they will have incentive to make sure that the money is being spent wisely. This does mean that they'll no longer give out $100k for a hypothetical finger painting degree.

- It's a societal norm that debt can be discharged in bankruptcy if a person has no assets and no income, and student loans shouldn't be straight-up exception. We have to tighten this up a little bit to make sure people don't go to college, default, and then reap all the benefits ... but disallowing bankruptcy entirely seems extreme. Optionally, we could also consider revoking their degree if they default (rough equivalent of repossession of a physical good).

- College is extremely expensive right now because a flood of guaranteed, subsidize money has created fairly inelastic demand -- many students have little price sensitivity. This drives prices up. If loans are harder to get, smaller, and not subsidized, college prices come down.

The big problem with the American system right now is that we've written the educational institutions a blank check. If suddenly we put even a little economic pressure on the system, costs will come down.

Many of these changes couldn't be made retroactive -- loans were given out under a set of conditions agreed upon by all parties, and these determined the amount of the loans, so they shouldn't be changed. These changes could, however, improve things for future generations.

One last note -- as someone who spent 5 years paying off $100k in student loans, and who now makes enough money that I'd be excluded from the 'free' (AKA 'paid by everyone else') tuition plans for my own kids, I do admit that I'm not real excited about that idea. I would be pretty ticked off if I had to pay for my own tuition, my children's tuition, and also everyone else's kids tuition.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the value of adversity is lost sometimes on HN. We should be especially familiar with it. Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Some times a struggle is not a bad thing. Not to the point where one should be homeless or starving of course, but having every…

This sentiment is so bizarre from a European perspective. So the only thing that stops people from getting an education willy nilly is student debt? Or American engineers are all better in some respects than German engineers because of their debt?

I never really said any of that.

The reality is that you can get a really good college education for rather cheap in the U.S. if you are smart about it. I could of gone to a local state college for 1/10th the tuition of a private school and received an education at a very similar level.

I just feel that a free for all education system (ala Bernie Sanders) would be detrimental. Having things be somewhat exclusive and require some amount of effort is not necessarily a bad thing. Germany itself imposes exams for example (although I don't know how difficult they actually are personally).

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#155
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many students pay way more than they have to. I graduated from a top-10 public school (in-state) after transferring from community college and my total bill was about $35k. That's not nothing, but also not a ball-and-chain six-figure mark that some people accrue. There are better options than a lot of people have taken. To me the solution has to involve better financial and career counseling for high school graduates…

Natural selection at work. Some make the wrong choice to take too much debt.

Precisely! Visarga is bold enough to speak the obvious truth!

Problem is many, if not most, incoming students are unable to understand the financial ramifications of student loans. This does not bode well for their futures, especially in technical fields.

David Letterman once joked that "The lotto is a tax you pay for not paying attention in math class." One might say the same about college student loans.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#156

Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…

> student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand.

If you give interest free loans there is a strong incentive from the universities to increase their fees. How do you fix that issue?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#157
post #122
post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

You really don't need to pay tuition to gain a rich education in art and humanities and sciences if you want one. There are resources aplenty - buy a book! I'd even go so far as to say the majority of college grads learned almost nothing during college, and the few who did would, after a few years of maturity, pick up a book of their own free will and enrich themselves. I think the costs of university (huge amounts o…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#158
post #133
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don't need to pay tuition to gain a rich education in art and humanities and sciences if you want one. There are resources aplenty - buy a book! I'd even go so far as to say the majority of college grads learned almost nothing during college, and the few who did would, after a few years of maturity, pick up a book of their own free will and enrich themselves. I think the costs of university (huge amounts o…

You could say that about anything though, and I'm sure many in engineering do (about everything from design patterns to category theory...). The value added by quality in-person tuition shouldn't be underrated though, not to mention access to equipment, studios, and like minds... Working and communicating in person is a hugely effective catalyst for productivity, creative evolution, etc. Artistic and scientific devel…

> Working and communicating in person is a hugely effective catalyst for productivity, creative evolution, etc. Artistic and scientific development is often accelerated by human interaction, which is why art movements and scientific advancements tend to cluster around communities (vs individuals).

Sounds like Google, and they don't charge tuition.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#159
post #96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the collateral? You buy a house, don't pay... you lose the house. And what happens when the bubble bursts and the house is now worth 200k less than what it was originally purchased for? The bank writes it off. So I propose we give everyone a paperclip with their degree and then if they file for bankruptcy they can give the paperclip, which depreciated 50-100k, back to the bank. It works for boomers so I th…

How about giving back the diploma itself?

Nobody actually cares about the piece of paper.

If you are an employer are you going to call up to university just to make sure that the student has paid their students loans?

No, whether or not they've paid their loans has zero to do with their qualifications, or your reasons for hiring you.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#160
post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

When it comes to student loans though, they should be given on someone's potential ability to actually pay them back, which is dependent on future career prospects. I'm not against Arts or offering scholarships/grants for them. What I'm against is allowing a person to take out $160,000 of debt at 6% interest for an education that will land them a job as an administrative assistant. They will most likely carry that de…

This. Banks give home/auto/business loans based on value of the home and ability to pay. Why not have similar metrics for education?
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