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It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

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Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#151
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Hillary Clinton, Saudi Arabia is a kingdom.

All real kingdoms --- not the UK, for instance, which is not in fact governed by a regent --- are dictatorships. Saudi Arabia is, and is.

Isn't that sort of a no true Scotsman argument, though? You've eliminated a whole bunch of countries with constitutional monarchies where the king, though not an absolute dictator, has significant political power. Kuwait, for instance.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#152
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe that an orderly transition to socialism is what's happening in Venezuela, or are you just presenting that as a theoretical framework for some kind of ideal case?

This is just an observation of what is going on in Venezuela. They have opted for a socialist economy and this necessarily requires a reordering of the economic forces. If people like it or not is another issue - most certainly the rich people in Venezuela hate it.

Anyone who has a medical condition in Venezuela probably dislikes this "reordering of economic forces" too. There are nearly no pharmaceuticals. Operating rooms can't function. One in three patients in hospitals end up dead according to the government's own statistics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#2010s

This isn't what socialism is supposed to look like.

As for the rich: the old rich certainly are poorer, and the old middle class seems to be sinking below poverty line by international metrics... But don't forget that there is a new class of rich people in Venezuela, as the leading party's inner circle has accumulated wealth. Even North Korea has its rich people despite its extreme Stalinist interpretation of socialism.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> right-wing authoritarian dictatorships aren't usually ideologically driven, don't pretend that what they're doing is just "for the good of the people WTF? Hitler definitely said he did what he did for the good of the German people (okay. not the Jewish people or handicapped people, but the people that mattered)

Also, Hitler was a national socialist.

The name of his party was the German National Socialist Workers Party, but other than, maybe, "German" and "National", those words had about as much connection with their common meanings as the "Democratic" in "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again with "trying to reason from the word socialist is not making you more credible".

Is socialist a word devoid of all meaning now, and you can negate any argument that uses it? Again with "trying to use the word socialist without a clear definition is not making your argument any more credible."

It was certainly devoid of meaning when it came to its use in the name "National Socialist Worker's Party". In other contexts, it's oftsn used with substantial meaning, and even often with a consistent enough meaning that uses are comparable. But that doesn't suddenly render the atypical uses examples of the usual meaning.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#155
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the difference between something like Brexit, which no one doubts was a free and fair election, and, say, Assad, who is not really the 'fault' of the Syrian people.

I get that. I just don't understand how that informs our response to the situation. Both Brexit and Syria are terrible situations.

Brexit is inconvenient; Syria is a humanitarian catastrophe. There are several orders of magnitude of difference.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#156

Maduro was elected president. There's no vote upcoming, just yet another recall referendum, this one which failed to get going in the courts. Honduras on the other hand had an elected president. Obama bankrolled his generals, who overthrew him in a coup in 2009, and then he continued bankrolling them. Where are the US newspaper headlines about the Honduran dictatorship? The Organization of American States, with the e…

The other thing that needs to be understood is that Venezuela has decided to become a socialist country. When that happens, it is normal that the GDP decreases as the economy reorganizes itself. But as income is shifted from the rich to the rest of society, most of the population will benefit, even if there is no real GDP growth.

There's a pretty hard limit on the benefit that can be achieved that way with no real growth in output, even in the car where redistribution actually proceeds and does so flawlessly. OTOH, I think there's plenty of evidence that Venezuela had largely been governed by a kleptocracy with socialist rhetoric rather than some ideal socialist redistributionist regime.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, it's often said that democracy requires an educated populace. So maybe if you don't have that, you don't have a democracy.

Also an unbiased and free news media, which is another thing that might need to be on your list.

If by unbiased you mean in terms of the bias variance trade-off, and not in terms of "tends to align with beliefs of neither side of the political spectrum," then I'm inclined to agree.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States was an extremely wealthy country with exceptional freedom up until the Great Depression. And this was only a short episode in US history.

Country being wealthy doesn't mean all the people in it are. Just a few percentage points at the top. US citizens, esp those under so called middle class, rank worse than most other western countries. Ya know all those Eurpean socialist ones.

Some data that provides a different picture:

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2016/08/us-is-doing-be...

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#159
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an observation of what is going on in Venezuela. They have opted for a socialist economy and this necessarily requires a reordering of the economic forces. If people like it or not is another issue - most certainly the rich people in Venezuela hate it.

Anyone who has a medical condition in Venezuela probably dislikes this "reordering of economic forces" too. There are nearly no pharmaceuticals. Operating rooms can't function. One in three patients in hospitals end up dead according to the government's own statistics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#2010s This isn't what socialism is supposed to look like. As for the rich: the old rich certain…

Most people in Venezuela never had access to pharmaceuticals. And, while any difficulties in health care are deplorable, lack of medical resources is the norm on third world countries. So it is difficult to assess how much of this was due to the regime policies or to the bad shape of the economy. The problem in doing this assessment is that all coverage of Venezuela is ideologically tainted. Any perceived problem in Venezuela is taken as the direct result of socialist policies, when in fact the country was poor longer before Chavez came to power. But for example, few newspapers will talk about the fact that the GDP of Venezuela has almost tripled since socialists came to power.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the alternative, which is what Allende was implementing in Chile: expropriation of private property (both farm and industry), hyperinflation, severe devaluation of currency, release of convicted guerrilla terrorists... the list goes on. In other words, what happened in Venezuela.

I would very much like to believe that you are not saying that Pinochet was better than the alternative. And I too think Venezuela is a disaster.

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