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RethinkDB is shutting down

rethinkdb.com

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Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#151
post #129
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if anyone else ran into this, but I evaluated RethinkDB for three separate projects over the years, and there was always that one missing feature. I don't remember exactly what they were, but I think the first time it was secondary indexes, the second was full text search and the third was geo indexes. Went with Postgres for all three. When Windows Phone 7 came out, without background tasks, MS was quick…

I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people who vetted RethinkDB and are now really concerned with this news. With the number of solutions out there to accomplish the same or more RethinkDB almost seems like a novelty choice. Surely the decision to make it business critical came with the understanding and acceptance that the company might go bust? I'm not sure what was accomplishable with RethinkDB that wasn't wi…

RethinkDB really managed to build quite a lot of positive feelings in me on the back of not very much technology. But what technology was there seemed very robust. Just kind of incomplete.

My situation was very similar to latch's above. I vetted it earlier this year, after having developed warm fuzzy feelings for it last year at another company. We wound up going with Postgres + Solr because A) we've used them before, B) they performed a lot better than Rethink, and C) Rethink's compensating features (distribution) weren't worth the tradeoff.

I thought Rethink seemed like Mongo done right. Both have a simple document storage model. Rethink embraced "relations" a lot better, and seemed interested in borrowing some good ideas from relational theory. Having a uniform query language was a good idea; the "builder" style was an odd choice but whatever. Where Mongo ignored and failed to address Aphyr's concerns directly (and antirez seemed to emit a cloud of interminable semantics debates) Rethink actually reached out to Aphyr for testing and rapidly took action based on his recommendations. They accepted the criticism readily and went to some effort to be transparent about what they could and could not do. Failover was not a 1.0 feature, so they didn't hose it totally. The admin interface was beautiful. You really felt like you had a simple, powerful tool that you could understand.

Performance wasn't great. This was the showstopper for me. But to be honest, I probably wasn't going to give them a dollar even if it was a lot better. I'm not paying for Postgres or Solr either. I don't know how you bootstrap a database business. The Mongo/MySQL approach of "make garbage, monetize, hope someday you can refactor it into shape" looks obviously wrong stacked up against Postgres, which always took the academic approach of "first make it right, then make it perform." But performance is a feature and it takes a long time to make a database right, let alone perform. I think they took the right approach. It's just a long process, and it may not be compatible with startup culture.

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#152

Wow. I was seriously rooting for them. I'm looking forward to Slava's posts about their challenges on the business side. There's a part of me that's angry that MongoDB - which some would say has made an objectively worse product - has succeeded. My initial thought is that MongoDB has done a way, way better job at SEO. The number of blog posts about RethinkDB pales in comparison to Mongo. I wonder if they got beat on…

Mongo also got there "first". I mean, Mongo isn't much compared to Rethink, but they're both in the "not a traditional SQL database" camp and Mongo came before and had all the hype first. I wouldn't be surprised if people a) didn't use Rethink because they're happy with Mongo and its popularity b) hated Mongo and saw Rethink as too similar/didn't research it enough.

Here is a blog post mentioning the service offerings around MongoDB as another factor: http://blog.dripstat.com/mongodb-vs-rethinkdb-why-we-had-to-...

(via this HN submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12650033)

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#153
post #91
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non profit companies still need to make money to keep the lights on. That means targeting technologies that can attract lots of donations. Databases are a very mature technology so the number of companies running into issues with them is vanishingly small. Who is going to donate to a non profit spending its time developing a solution a problem almost nobody has?

I don't know, I feel like lots of people donate to universities to spend their times solving problems that almost nobody has. Or maybe they don't, but somehow that money still exists. How does that work? Why are we assuming that everything has to be done by companies? What if we establish a National Science Foundation for fundamental CS research?

There's plenty of fundamental research being done. Research doesn't yield products.

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#154
Really sad to hear this. I always had a ton of respect for you guys and your commitment to solid technology. (I mean y'all even passed Aphyr's Jepsen tests out of the gate [1]) You've also always paid a great deal of attention to interface, both in your query language and in administration.

One of your engineers even wrote once that maybe you took longer than you should have and over-engineered some things, but now that that was in place y'all would be better off for it. I'm sorry that didn't wind up being the case, at least as far as your company is concerned.

RethinkDB was at the top of my list of technologies I want to build something on. I even went to your (one?) meetup in Boulder. I guess my t-shirt is now a collectable :-/

But I'm happy for y'all that you wound up finding a great place you can all work together. Best of luck!

[1] https://aphyr.com/posts/329-jepsen-rethinkdb-2-1-5

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#155

A shame that a company like mongo can exist while a company like rethink folds.

I believe this is because the Node.JS community still recommends MongoDB as the perfect database engine for their projects. There is even a name for their stack — MEAN, MondoDB + Express.JS + Angular.JS + Node.JS — which is kind of ironic because considering the rapid evolution of the JavaScript ecosystem having an acronym like that will make no sense in a couple of months since now people prefer React-like libraries…

FWIW I've been in the Node/JS community for a few years and I've honestly rarely seen MEAN or Mongo be mentioned outside of blogs and corporate Hackathons (where Mongo is usually a sponsor). Maybe companies use it (I rarely pay attention to what people do with Node at companies) but I'll bet it's because of "hype" and its apparent popularity. Most JS devs I follow or talk to use a SQL database and dislike Mongo.

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay...but if Rethink couldn't make their business self-sustaining, why would Mongo when there are a plethora of other open source databases/datastores that can do Mongo's job better than Mongo? EDIT: We'll just wait for Mongo to burn through all their cash then.

Because having the better product (often) doesn't matter: see Windows vs Apple in the early days. Mongo has a strong community, which translates into a plethora of articles/blog-posts/tutorials/etc that secures its niche. From there it's possible to make money with things like consulting fees to help fix the problems it created in the first place. It's all about execution. Case and point: I know what (purportedly) ma…

*case in point

(sorry)

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mongo also got there "first". I mean, Mongo isn't much compared to Rethink, but they're both in the "not a traditional SQL database" camp and Mongo came before and had all the hype first. I wouldn't be surprised if people a) didn't use Rethink because they're happy with Mongo and its popularity b) hated Mongo and saw Rethink as too similar/didn't research it enough.

Well, Couch DB got there first but it didn't help them much. I think you're right it was mostly about social media marketing.

I think couch never caught on because of it's very different querying paradigm that was enough of a friction to mass adoption.(which has only been fixed by making a mongo like DSL in the 2.0 release).

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#159
post #48

RethinkDB is one of the developer tools that we at Stripe most looked up to.[1] The team had so many good ideas and rigorous, creative thoughts around what a database could be and how it should work. I'm really bummed that it didn't work out for them and have enormous respect for the tenacity of their effort. I'm also excited to have them join us here at Stripe. As we've gotten to know Mike, Slava, and the other Reth…

Patrick, I am curious why Stripe didn't just acquire RethinkDB completely? Seems like you could have gotten a bargain. Their investors get some money back, you'd get their excellent intellectual property, and finally the entire functioning RethinkDB team joins Stripe. Win-win right?

The IP is open source, and Stripe owes nothing to RethinkDB's investors.

Why buy something you can have for free?

Re: RethinkDB is shutting down

#160

Why does nobody seem to have any introspection on why RethinkDB failed? Clearly there are some major problems that people re ignoring. If my favorite DB (I must mention Kx Systems once a month) folded, I could give you a laundry list of issues where things went sideways, but all I see is glowing praise and comments about the best tech not always winning (KDB knocks the socks off of everything, but I sure can give you…

If I had to speculate, I'd say that they spent a long time in development before monetizing, longer than investors were willing to entertain. It's hard for a B2B company to raise a Series B without a thoroughly proven revenue engine. I don't know how this could have been fixed though. Databases are hard to develop and it's a tough market to crack. Enterprises aren't going to buy an incomplete product, especially not…

Just looking at some of the RethinkDB and ReQL stuff, I certainly wouldn't have used it. Two things hit me immediately:

- bad performance

- a dearth of types (literally only a single numeric type that is a 64-bit float, so that eliminates entire categories that rely on integer/fixed-precision exact arithmetic. Also, time series are seriously hurt by that decision. I've seen DBs have to move to 64-bit longs because of that issue alone. Having a pseudo-type layered on top is just going to tie up CPU cycles in the encode/decodes that need to happen. (Plus milliseconds aren't enough in a nano-second world now.)

This whole "let's do everything with as few types as possible" I hope is a fad that will just die quickly in the DB world.

This is with about 20 minutes of looking around and just listing a few things. It looks like RethinkDB was written by web devs for web devs and I don't think that can compete in the database world. You might get the web devs onboard, but the database and HPC people at the firm will probably look at it and go "how quaint when can we get Oracle/Postgres/Informix/etc up and running?"

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