Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#151

Post by hueving » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 3:24 AM UTC

whybroke wrote: post #148

objectivistbrit wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Or is the objection merely to some wholly imaginary threat to the purity of the anglo-saxon race and culture and an unthinking and instantaneous embracing of anything nationalist and right leaning?" Yes. Yes it is. Everyone who disagrees with you is emotionally driven and intellectually dishonest. The goal we object to was the attempt to build a giant country. The EEC should have stuck with the tariff free zone and…

> The goal we object to was the attempt to build a giant country. Why? Honestly, how would that be bad? After all the UK consists of Wales, England, Scotland and N. Ireland. People of the past opposed that unity so much they were willing to die to try to prevent it yet on the whole that unity has been undeniably positive. For the EU for example, how could having an single foreign policy be a bad idea in any way? How…

>single foreign policy be a bad idea in any way?

Because you might disagree with it? How can you be so narrow-minded to not even fathom people having different fundamental beliefs? Why don't Israel and Palestine just merge into one country called Unicornia? Why don't all people just separate religious beliefs from government, or conversely, why don't we all just switch to the correct(tm) religion?

One country may not want to support terrorists while another wants to support them because they are 'freedom fighters', how do you propose they operate under the same foreign policy?

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#152

Post by shard972 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 3:41 AM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #142

markonthewall wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are candy-bars to make you happy, just like the EHRC is keeping the leftists in line while we slowly shift toward an ordoliberal paradigm at the european level. For countries like France, Italy and even Germany, that means social regression and harmonisation by the bottom. >Yes, I would rather have decisions made by people in Brussels that understand what they're doing. Yay structural unemployment in the eurozo…

I've given a similar response below to a different comment, and it would be a bit pointless to paste it here. To summarize though: 1) I don't believe I know any better than anyone else, it's just that I feel this was the wrong decision for a variety of reasons, and I'm very scared for the future based on this result. 2) I am a smug jackass that knows significantly less than he thinks he does, and I use long words in…

> I just think that they try to make the correct ones with the best of intentions and fail.

There is a saying that goes "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#153

Post by shard972 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 3:44 AM UTC

the_other wrote: post #35

jomamaxx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The argument doesn't makes sense. When a normal citizen is choosing her internet provider they are not going to expend a lot of time looking at the implications of their decision." I think you're missing the implication of the point. If there is 'a lot of competition' - it makes cartel-like or colluding behaviour among carriers difficult, thereby facilitating de-facto net-neutrality. Customers don't have to be aware…

> If there is 'a lot of competition' - it makes cartel-like or colluding behaviour among carriers difficult, thereby facilitating de-facto net-neutrality. Can you explain this further? I struggle to see how you get from "a lot of competition" to "de-facto net neutrality", and how that would continue indefinitely. It seems to me that we had de-facto net neutrality from the outset but that over time, as the industry ma…

> Can you explain this further? I struggle to see how you get from "a lot of competition" to "de-facto net neutrality", and how that would continue indefinitely.

Well to paint it as an extreme, if there was so much competition that you could change ISP's within minutes then considering the fact NN is so important to many people there will always be ISP's looking to offer that because people will leave the ISP's that don't.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#154

Post by nordify » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 4:28 AM UTC

RGamma wrote: post #138

soci wrote: post #63

As always, devil is in the details. If you look at the fine print in the published "Guidelines for implementing Net Neutratily" [1] linked in the article you will see that there are 3 exceptions to the rule (a,b,c). Being "c" the one that should fear us most: EXCEPTIONS a) "comply with Union legislative acts (...) -> meaning that a court order can change Net Neutrality, hmmm ok. b) preserve the integrity and security…

Congestion control and QoS are crucial parts necessary for network reliability and the functioning of low latency services though. How would one even formulate a law that doesn't have loopholes w.r.t. to those?

Core networks do not use QoS or congestion control in the traditional sense, as they are designed to be run without congestion in normal circumstances and because QoS is too expensive compared to adding more capacity.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#155

Post by whybroke » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 5:09 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #151

whybroke wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal we object to was the attempt to build a giant country. Why? Honestly, how would that be bad? After all the UK consists of Wales, England, Scotland and N. Ireland. People of the past opposed that unity so much they were willing to die to try to prevent it yet on the whole that unity has been undeniably positive. For the EU for example, how could having an single foreign policy be a bad idea in any way? How…

>single foreign policy be a bad idea in any way? Because you might disagree with it? How can you be so narrow-minded to not even fathom people having different fundamental beliefs? Why don't Israel and Palestine just merge into one country called Unicornia? Why don't all people just separate religious beliefs from government, or conversely, why don't we all just switch to the correct(tm) religion? One country may not…

Do you agree with every foreign policy decision your current country makes? Are there really allot EU member states that support terrorist? Is the UK - EU divide really as violent as the Israel Palestine divide?

I was hoping there was some coherent argument in favor of Brexit that I had not heard and that maronthewall might be hinting at. Clearly I was in error in that hope.

And as objectivistbrit so defensively denied: '...emotionally driven and intellectually dishonest...' is shown very clearly again to be very much at the core of the Brexit movement

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#156

Post by wiz21c » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

lugg wrote: post #150

WilliamDhalgren wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope; that would simply be challenged in court.

Really, who is going to challenge the difference between Netflix and torrents. Both video. Both serve the end user in the same way. But nobody will challenge it because nobody is in charge of torrents. This kills neutrality completely. There is no way those ruling over this know where to draw the category lines properly.

torrents are more general than netflix, so it's not the same category

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#157

Post by lugg » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 8:21 AM UTC

wiz21c wrote: post #156

lugg wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, who is going to challenge the difference between Netflix and torrents. Both video. Both serve the end user in the same way. But nobody will challenge it because nobody is in charge of torrents. This kills neutrality completely. There is no way those ruling over this know where to draw the category lines properly.

torrents are more general than netflix, so it's not the same category

That's exactly my point though.

It's not the same category, but it IS a competing service playing on an unfair playing field.

Leveling the playing field for people playing the same game is all fine and dandy, but it completely fucks over disruptive innovations challenging the status quo in a different category.

How about this one, people watch less TV than they did ten years ago, a lot of that time is now spent using Facebook, what happens when Facebook isn't throttled but Netflix and the rest in their category are?

This isn't net neutrality in the slightest.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#158

Post by j2ko4r » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 11:44 AM UTC

lugg wrote: post #157

wiz21c wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

torrents are more general than netflix, so it's not the same category

That's exactly my point though. It's not the same category, but it IS a competing service playing on an unfair playing field. Leveling the playing field for people playing the same game is all fine and dandy, but it completely fucks over disruptive innovations challenging the status quo in a different category. How about this one, people watch less TV than they did ten years ago, a lot of that time is now spent using…

> It's not the same category, but it IS a competing service playing on an unfair playing field.

It really isn't. Netflix isn't a protocol, and if you're using torrents as a drop in replacement for Netflix you're breaking copyright law in any case. You can't argue that you use torrents as a competing service without implying you're breaking the law.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#159

Post by c3833174 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 11:45 AM UTC

nordify wrote: post #85

pmontra wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very difficult to do that with ADSL. The bandwidth varies for every customer, according to the length and the status of their copper cable. They should advertise the minimum bandwidth of some reference cable but how does it help us? With fiber, yes, that's possible. They're not advertising it in commercials but the website of my ISP has a page with those data. It matches what I experience with fiber.

For ADSL you define classes. Then for each class (i.e. line speed that you sync at) you offer speed guarantees.

Stability of the sync should also be taken into account, to ensure the connection doesn't drop continuously at peak hours.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#160

Post by revanx_ » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 11:48 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #58

heinrichhartman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not likely going to happen nore is it a sensible thing to ask for. As an ISP how would you _guarantee_ the bandwidth for each endpoint? You would have to provision for the maximal capacity all over your network. Given that most people only utilize their channel 1% of the time, this is a huge waste! What's sensible to ask ISPs to do is: (a) Communicate historically experienced bandwith at each region (b) Provid…

> As an ISP how would you _guarantee_ the bandwidth for each endpoint? When I still lived in Slovenia, I had 20/20 FTTH. Fiber went directly into a router in my bedroom. My bandwidth was always exactly 20/20. No matter what. Now I have Comcast. Speedtest says I get 80/6. On Friday and Saturday evenings Netflix and Facebook and many other things often experience issues. Now I can't confirm any of this. If you run spee…

As someone living in Slovenia and still running on ADSL2+ I'm jelly. Regarding your 20/20, highly suspect, it's likely you were doing speedtest tests against your ISPs server which would make sense but you would never get that past their gateway.