Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#151

Post by rando444 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:19 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #142

This is one of the many dark patterns that Facebook uses. It simply does not respect any boundaries the user might wish to have in place... Install it on your phone? Anyone you have in your phone's address book gets to see your picture under "people you may know". Someone in your family joins Facebook and friends you? Now everyone you are friends with gets prompted about whether or not they know your family member. W…

I know it's seems like it's 'dark pattern' week on HN, but not everything is a dark pattern.

Dark Patterns are user interfaces that are designed to trick users.

Facebook requests the permission to go through your stuff and if you read their data use policy, they go so far as to tell you in detail exactly the information they're taking from you, as well as how they use it.

Sure, it's a little bothersome when the information that you've given them goes farther than your personal preference, but it's not a 'dark pattern', it's just a feature that you don't like.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#152

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:21 PM UTC

yaur wrote: post #78

dunkelheit wrote: post #15

The phonebook hypothesis seems most plausible to me (especially considering that WhatsApp is owned by facebook). All those apps gaining access to a phonebook is a privacy disaster.

This is almost certainly the "phonebook" hypothesis. If Lisa has her phone number associated with her Facebook account and either Lisa or the client has the others phone number in their smart phones contacts and the Facebook app installed that relationship can pop up in people you may know. If there aren't good "people you may know" suggestions the ones you get can end up being "people who may be known to people you…

That might help, but facebook is still fully capable of seeing that the clients have the same number in both of their phone books.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#153

Post by rando444 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:33 PM UTC

huehehue wrote: post #127

So, I deactivated my account maybe 6 months ago, and uninstalled the app long ago. Since then, I moved halfway across the country and, using a brand new laptop, a fake name and number, and a throwaway email address, created another profile so I could use their API. People You May Know still had old high school friends, my old real estate broker (??), and someone I starred on GitHub. I have absolutely no idea how they…

You either logged your new account into a mobile device and it pulled your contacts, or you gave facebook your phone number for account recovery / two-factor and they already had your contacts either from your old account, or if you use whatsapp or instagram.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#154

Post by 55555 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:42 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #142

This is one of the many dark patterns that Facebook uses. It simply does not respect any boundaries the user might wish to have in place... Install it on your phone? Anyone you have in your phone's address book gets to see your picture under "people you may know". Someone in your family joins Facebook and friends you? Now everyone you are friends with gets prompted about whether or not they know your family member. W…

> Want to delete some pictures you uploaded to Facebook? It's extremely difficult and they must be deleted one by one.

THIS is a huge pain point for me. I would ideally like to delete all my Facebook photos and timeline/wall posts from all of history. However, I cannot find a greasemonkey or tampermonkey script which will actually accomplish this. There are a few that claim to, but none actually worked for me (outdated).

Has anyone figured this out?

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#155

Post by pdkl95 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:43 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #131

pdkl95 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people opting out ... makes its information less valuable for targeted advertising I have very little sympathy for a business model based on surveillance and manipulation. Figuring out how to generate revenue is Facebook's problem. Lots of unethical behavior would be valuable in various business models. Facebook can police themselves or they eventually invite (probably less desirable) legislation crafted by pissed…

> I have very little sympathy for a business model based on surveillance and manipulation. I have none whatsoever. But Facebook, as it is today, is a thing that is. I don't see that imagining the current state of affairs to be other than it is helps anything. I'm also not hugely in favor of looking to government for a solution to this problem, because the United States government, for all its many and various qualiti…

We probably agree on quite a bit. I'm not trying to accuse you of victim blaming - or anything else - so if I have implied otherwise I apologize; that was not my intention. It wouldn't be my first miscommunication.

My reference to victim blaming was targeted at the the ideas in the thread - and often stated by Facebook and others in the surveillance industry - that people should know not to use Facebook when they have not had an opportunity to learn about how modern technology works. Education is a great idea, but that takes time. (I've been spending 20+ years trying to educate people about the internet, encryption, and privacy in the modern age)

> to be in general a pacifist. Those are nice claims to make.

I have the scars and hospital bill to prove it. Fortunately I was lucky and the (tool assisted) beating didn't do a lot of permanent damage.

> an action with which you say you see nothing wrong.

I never said I saw nothing wrong with it, only that Facebook should to accept what they do to others.

I do understand Facebook's business model. I also understand some of the VP-level people involved, because I taught some of them how to program. These are people that are perfect examples of being born into "privilege", who need some real experience in how the rest of the world actually lives. I don't wish them harm, but I won't shed a tear if they get harsh dose of reality.

(I've probably not worded this optimally; I'm trying to restrain my language because these people piss me off)

> I don't think Facebook lies when it says that such disclosures are accidental.

I'm sure they're telling the truth. I'm suggesting that they are being negligent in their use of automation. If they had any experience in the problems that most people face in the real world, they should have know that problems like at this doctor's office would have happened.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#156

Post by sverige » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:44 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #89

DavideNL wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do miss the social life I had a few years back, and which opting not to sign up for Facebook cost me You don't know if it was "opting not to use Facebook" that lead to decline in your social life, because you didn't test whether "being on Facebook" would not have lead to decline in your social life. (I've seen many articles that state exactly the opposite - that people who have less social interactions spent more…

Actually, I do know. Rather than rehearse again the means by which I know, let me refer you to the two most recent times I've done so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12009198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12362818 (Maybe it's necessary to point out that I'm aware of the possibility that all the apologies I ever received on this subject were lies. I'm aware of the possibility that all the apologies I ever…

I think the abusive relationship metaphor is perfect.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#157

Post by hoodoof » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:47 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #142

This is one of the many dark patterns that Facebook uses. It simply does not respect any boundaries the user might wish to have in place... Install it on your phone? Anyone you have in your phone's address book gets to see your picture under "people you may know". Someone in your family joins Facebook and friends you? Now everyone you are friends with gets prompted about whether or not they know your family member. W…

Some girl from a dating site Googled my phone number, found my name, searched for me on Facebook and then Facebook suggested I friend her, providing me with her full name, which I did not previously know.

If you search for someone on Facebook, then Facebook will suggest to that person that they friend you. Seems a massive privacy hole to me.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#158

Post by giancarlostoro » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:52 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #142

This is one of the many dark patterns that Facebook uses. It simply does not respect any boundaries the user might wish to have in place... Install it on your phone? Anyone you have in your phone's address book gets to see your picture under "people you may know". Someone in your family joins Facebook and friends you? Now everyone you are friends with gets prompted about whether or not they know your family member. W…

LinkedIn is pretty bad at trying though. I got a new job not long ago, they congratulated me on it, two days later or so, and even now still they keep sending me emails about my next future job. I barely have gotten my feet wet at this one... What in the world?

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#159

Post by dmix » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:53 PM UTC

rando444 wrote: post #151

grandalf wrote: post #142

This is one of the many dark patterns that Facebook uses. It simply does not respect any boundaries the user might wish to have in place... Install it on your phone? Anyone you have in your phone's address book gets to see your picture under "people you may know". Someone in your family joins Facebook and friends you? Now everyone you are friends with gets prompted about whether or not they know your family member. W…

I know it's seems like it's 'dark pattern' week on HN, but not everything is a dark pattern. Dark Patterns are user interfaces that are designed to trick users. Facebook requests the permission to go through your stuff and if you read their data use policy, they go so far as to tell you in detail exactly the information they're taking from you, as well as how they use it. Sure, it's a little bothersome when the infor…

Indeed, I don't believe the problem here was that Facebook was tricking their users here into handing over their phones/emails contact information (aka this persons client lists). FB is explicit about permissions in this sense, although most users agree to everything without thinking twice.

The real problem is how the information was utilized by the recommendation engine, which is known to be creepily effective at matching people (people who just met for the first time, for example). FB is investing heavily in AI here so this is the natural outcome - where the results are very effective but has some unintended side effects. The side effects are largely due to the fact this connectivity happens in the background, outside of a place where the user can control privacy settings on particular contacts.

So I'm not sure there is an easy solution here. Mining contacts and social information is Facebook's business. It's what you hand over to use the service and why many people stop using Facebook voluntarily - or carefully limit what information they allow access to. I never allow FB to access my phones contacts, for instance, and their mobile app still works fine.

Re: Facebook recommended that a psychiatrist’s patients friend each other

#160

Post by AimHere » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 11:59 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #98

Fuxy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically don't install Facebook or Whatsapp try to use the Facebook website if you can or better yet don't use Facebook at all on your phone if you value your privacy. It's sad that we are at this stage but it's mostly our fault for being so complacent with companies doing these kinds of things. If people stopped using their service when they did these kinds of things they would change their behaviour really quic…

>So basically don't install Facebook or Whatsapp try to use the Facebook website if you can or better yet don't use Facebook at all on your phone if you value your privacy. It's sad that we are at this stage but it's mostly our fault for being so complacent with companies doing these kinds of things. Exactly: it's our fault. None of this privacy-invading stuff is secret, it's all over the news. At this point, if you…

You're being overly complacent. Facebook might find it harder to track people who don't sign up to it, but they still have shadow profiles for tracking non-users. You get tracked by what your friends and contacts share about you as well as what you choose to share. If anyone who put you in their mobile contacts let Facebook's app loose on their phone, then smile, you're already on Facebook.

Privacy is an environmental issue, not a transactional one. With the current system, there's really no opt-out short of opting out of social life altogether.