Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

David Cameron announces resignation

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 345 posts

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#151

Post by lmm »

dogma1138 wrote: post #50
gonzo41 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not that invested in this. I just think it's amazing that Cameron would let it happen. What a massive mistake. And what a way to to end your career and cement in your legacy as the person who to get short term gain (ukip support) at an election with the cost of destroyed an economy. I'm very my pro remain. People voting to leave is mostly about not understanding what your losing. Strong tightly integrated…

I don't understand why people blame this on Cameron, no one else would be in a position not go a ahead with this, this is a divisive matter but it's clear that the people wanted a vote on the subject. And let's be fair English left was pretty much demolished in the last elections the Labour lost just as many votes to UKIP as the Tories did as the British blue collar workers used to be their base and many of those are…

The government has a responsibility to govern. Cameron shirked his. He didn't have to offer a referendum; he did it not out of some commitment to democracy but as a ploy to win the election.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#152

Post by al_chemist »

geff82 wrote: post #42

He'll go down in history as one of the worst leaders the UK ever had. Which he already was before yesterday. By the way, if he let the people decide on such a super topic as leave/remain in the EU, why does he not let his people vote on whether they want total surveillance or not? If they want a police state? Why can't they decide on stuff that affects their daily lives in a potential negative way? Or will they ignor…

> if he let the people decide on such a super topic as leave/remain in the EU

It was a deal he striken during last election. To buy UKIP votes (their main goal was to leave EU) he said he will make a referendum. His calculation was that there are not enough UKIP voters (~20% maybe) to pass referendum, but it will allow him to get elected (his voters + UKIP voters).

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#153

Post by zimpenfish »

Ntrails wrote: post #96
simonbarker87 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think Boris cared one way of the other (Remain/Leave), he just saw a way to position himself for PM and took it.

Given that he's been writing against the EU for 15 years or more, that's pretty unlikely.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2012/dec/04/boris-j...

> He said that in such a referendum he would campaign for Britain to stay in. As a journalist in Brussels, he "migrated from being quite enthusiastic about Europe to being really very sceptical". But whenever he considered the prospect of Britain leaving, he always came down "narrowly" in favour of Britain staying in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-...

> Boris has turned his back on his long-held belief in the peace and prosperity the EU has brought but it’s hardly surprising, given that just months ago he was still telling friends he is not an Outer.

etc.etc.etc. He's a political opportunist who follows whichever wind will get him most power. Much like Cameron except that backfired spectacularly.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#154

Post by fredley »

panic wrote: post #149
fredley wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both the US general election and this referendum, the primary forces at play are emotive campaigning backed by false or at the very least misleading information (in our case: portrayal of immigrants, the '£350m a week' figure that has already had some very serious backpeddling, etc. etc.). We have an electorate that is woefully misinformed for a whole host of reasons. How you address this is beyond me.

Honestly I think our best bet is to focus on education and childcare, then try to hold on for a generation. Many parents don't have time to raise their children as well as they'd like. Teachers are underpaid, under-respected and have in many cases had their agency taken away by standardized tests. It's no wonder so many people find it difficult to stay informed when they're starting from so far behind.

Agreed, for the Brexit vote, anyone with a degree was much more likely to vote remain (and there was a strong correlation between more education and likelihood to vote remain). This current government has made higher education much less attainable, and much less attractive for many people by raising the fees that students must pay (or loan) up front.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#155

Post by jacquesm »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #121
anonymousDan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from Ireland I'm really not sure I could be bothered dealing with all the shit that could entail. Would prefer if they just went independent and joined the EU as a separate country.

It would be rather ironic if after all the troubles the North said they wanted to reunify and the South said fuck off.

Something similar happened in Belgium a while ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Belgium

It's still pretty much an unresolved situation at the present, in the longer term it could go either way.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#156

Post by CM30 »

geff82 wrote: post #82
e12e wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it at a little odd to read this characterisation on HN of all places. I mean, it's pretty much run by "old" technologists, right?

You are absolutely right, while I am, too. Of course there are progressive, far thinking elderly people and I enjoy being around them. I recently talked to a 71 year old who is into fractal programming and wants to get into Linux, soon (all while being politically liberal). But the elections and polls show always the same picture: the older people get, the more conservative/right wing they vote, which is often not wh…

Well, it'd help if the younger generation actually bothered for things instead of complaining about them on social media. Less online petitions, more going down to the ballot box. If they were represented in the vote, more politicians would listen to them.

But they currently don't because the older generations actually show up on voting day.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#157

Post by adwf »

jacquesm wrote: post #142
adwf wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people forget that he'd already had two MPs jump ship to UKIP. If he hadn't promised a referendum the party would've split down the middle. What I don't get, and didn't get with the Scots referendum either, is why on earth they didn't require a super-majority? Surely with something as critical as this, you'd want a bit more convincing than a 2% margin? It doesn't have to be a 3/4ths or even 2/3rds, but a 60.1/39…

> If he hadn't promised a referendum the party would've split down the middle. And now you have a country split down the middle.

Yep, not Britain's finest hour at the moment. Scotland have already begun the process for a 2nd independence referendum and will probably win it this time. Northern Ireland are likely to follow.

In 5 years time we'll just be talking about England alone. With maybe Cornwall and the North splitting from London and the South East.

Might be time to dig up my Scottish ancestry and get a dual passport...

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#158

Post by fnord123 »

gadders wrote: post #120
mtgx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theresa May would be a scary successor indeed, and may even top Cameron as the worst UK leader. UK needs to vote conservatives out, and it needs to reconsider switching the voting system (this time to a proportional representation one).

A referendum was held on proportional representation (one method, at least) and was rejected.

Alternate Voting is not a method of proportional representation. It is another voting scheme. The Liberal Democrats wanted a vote for Proportional Representation and the Conservatives agreed to a referendum, but on the rubbish AV scheme instead. Many many people voted against AV because it wasn't as good as PR and didn't want to change multiple times.

PR is superior to AV and FPTP and should be implemented. It shouldn't even have a referendum. It should just be done.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#159

Post by jacquesm »

adwf wrote: post #157
jacquesm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If he hadn't promised a referendum the party would've split down the middle. And now you have a country split down the middle.

Yep, not Britain's finest hour at the moment. Scotland have already begun the process for a 2nd independence referendum and will probably win it this time. Northern Ireland are likely to follow. In 5 years time we'll just be talking about England alone. With maybe Cornwall and the North splitting from London and the South East. Might be time to dig up my Scottish ancestry and get a dual passport...

Don't forget Spain claiming Gibraltar.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#160

Post by siliconviking »

geff82 wrote: post #65
fredley wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theresa May is one of the scariest contenders as far as I've seen. Very pro-surveillance and anti-open internet. She would be a (nother) disaster for UK tech. If there's anybody left who hasn't moved to Dublin/Berlin by October.

The problem we currently have in politics it demography. People get older and older, the baby boomers forgot to "produce" children. Elder people tend to be deeply conservative and anti-technology. And as they are the majority now, they vote for stuff that they think is right ("let's 100% control that freaking thing called internet") and totally strangle the younger generation with their bad taste and shortsightedness…

I think a better way to come at this is to assume that on average, most people have given this decision a reasonable amount of thought, young people as well as old people. The debates have been going on for months, and pros and cons have been discussed at great length.

Further, I don't think it's fair to underestimate the experience and historic perspective old people have, that young people don't. After all, many of the older people who voted yesterday where around before the EU came about, and are able to factor in that extra information, plus their historic perspective in their decision, which, by definition, makes for a more informed decision.

You are right that older people tend to be more conservative, but you yourself may end up being more conservative when you are 90, vs. how conservative you are today, and you may only realize the reasons for it once it happens, and perhaps you will think those are actually quite good reasons, who knows.

The bottom line is that if you just attribute the older population's decision to "bad taste" and "shortsightedness", you may not realize the true reason behind their decision, which diminishes your ability to understand and influence others.

Post reply on HN