If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why • Hacker News Board

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#151

Post by shortsightedsid » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #140

When I visited India a couple of years ago, we also observed this indifference towards victims of accidents. Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in Christian cultures. I don't know whether this is correc…

> Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture.

You may have been misled there because Indian culture isn't homogenous. Even from a Hindu thought perspective, as per Chapter 17, Sloka 20 of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says

दातव्यमिति यद्दानं दीयतेऽनुपकारिणे। देशे काले च पात्रे च तद्दानं सात्त्विकं स्मृतम्।।17.20।।

While I'm not an expert, loosing translated, it means that one must do charity without expecting anything in return. Doing so, in the right manner and in the right place is the epitome of goodness.

I interpret that to be a pretty clear moral imperative to help someone in genuine need.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#152

Post by Udo » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

shortsightedsid wrote: post #147

Udo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is projected to be one of the twelve countries who together will account for 50% of the world's population growth until 2050, at which point it's assumed India will host 1.7 billion humans. Asia will in total have gone from 4.3 to 5.2 billions, which is by far not as dramatic as the projected growth of Africa from 1.1 billion now to 2.5 billion in 2050. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

> Indian people I have talked to are enthusiastic about the prospect of edging out China in terms of future economy, and population size is seen as the primary means of achieving that. Huh? The problem with that statement is the sample size. Even if you talked to every Indian person you know (presumably anywhere between 100 and 10000), it will be less than 0.001% of the total population of India. Edit: Grammer.

Yes, it's anecdotal, that's why I had prefaced the entire paragraph with a huge disclaimer. But I see how complementing a string of google-able facts with some personal impressions and experiences might be perceived as gratuitous, and that's why I removed it now.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#153

Post by chaostheory » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #120

Chris2048 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is also that you risk getting blamed merely for helping, This is why it is relevent.

IMO the above case is more of a symptom of the problem rather than what causes the problem itself. Someone who helps is implicated as guilty because being indifferent and lacking morals is expected behavior, while 'helping' is considered highly abnormal and therefore the action is suspect. From personal experience I do not believe this is the real reason for why a family is left dying on the road. When I travel to ce…

http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Social-Virtues-Creation-Prosperi...

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#154

Post by tmalsburg2 » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #145

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #140

When I visited India a couple of years ago, we also observed this indifference towards victims of accidents. Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in Christian cultures. I don't know whether this is correc…

> Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. As an Indian I can tell you that that viewpoint is incorrect. Culture is the last thing that would come in between a good-samaritan and a person in need. > Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in a Chri…

I appreciate the response but you completely misinterpreted my comment. I did not say or imply that there are no Christians in India, and I did not say or imply that every Christian would rush to help while every non-Christian would be indifferent. I also didn't imply that Indian culture(s) are somehow inferior to western culture(s). I just related what one person in India told me and asked whether Indians think it's correct. I don't see how this insults anyone.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#155

Post by burfog » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #120

Chris2048 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is also that you risk getting blamed merely for helping, This is why it is relevent.

IMO the above case is more of a symptom of the problem rather than what causes the problem itself. Someone who helps is implicated as guilty because being indifferent and lacking morals is expected behavior, while 'helping' is considered highly abnormal and therefore the action is suspect. From personal experience I do not believe this is the real reason for why a family is left dying on the road. When I travel to ce…

"It would be a very touchy subject though as the results of the study will implicate some cultures as more 'evil' than others."

You don't say? There is a mighty good chance it is even worse: this is a brain trait, and we know that brain traits are at least partially due to DNA. Anybody who dares to research this one is completely nuts, with or without tenure.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#156

Post by prewett » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #143

po wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that, the incentives are such that it's better to kill than maim: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... (although this is apparently in question: http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ ) This is one of those subjects where people like to put moral consequences on the bystanders when it's the rules and larger structures of the society that matter. Driving in I…

That is murder. Incentives explain the logical reason why a person is murdered rather than maimed, but it doesn't explain why the chinese person has the ethical framework of a psychopath. In america, if you injure a victim in a car accident and no one is around, you still have the option of killing the victim and driving away to avoid getting caught. The inventive is the same, you avoid insurance increases and hospit…

In America the killing the person avoids a couple hundred dollar insurance increase, while putting you at risk of going to jail for a long time, and the legal system strongly enforces things. Now suppose that you had to pay the victim's hospital fees out of pocket, like people in China. At $10k/day (which I believe is standard hospital costs), that could quickly ruin you financially. If you thought there was a good chance that you could bribe the judge or use your connections to get out of it, it changes the calculation.

You could probably substitute "America" in your argument with "Germany in 1920," yet the German population killed millions of people. Is the problem the people, or the system that enables the evil that all of us are capable of?

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#157

Post by horshod » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

sonink wrote: post #131

po wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that, the incentives are such that it's better to kill than maim: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... (although this is apparently in question: http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ ) This is one of those subjects where people like to put moral consequences on the bystanders when it's the rules and larger structures of the society that matter. Driving in I…

Driving in India is only insane to westerners. I have been driving in India for a decade and I dont find it hard at all. Driving in the US though is one of the most stressfull things for me. Part of the stress in US is because of the different side driving, but also a lot because I have to keep in mind a TON of rules - lane markers, speed limits, lane changing etc.- and everyone moves in super high speed so any mista…

I drove in India for 6 years and have been driving in the US for 8 years now. I used to feel exactly the same way initially. I used to wonder how I would follow so many rules. But once I got used to them (in a few months) driving became SO easy. The traffic situation in India is objectively insane, without a doubt.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#158

Post by spacecop » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:20 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #111

jargnar wrote: post #93

A very real, slightly non-obvious problem is the size of the Indian population itself. There are so many people here that, competition is a stronger emotion than community. To an extent that sometimes it is considered normal to put someone else at risk for your benefit, while self-empathizing along the lines of "Hey, if I don't do it, someone else will stamp on that person to move ahead in life." Competition is every…

Fun fact, the train ticketing systems in India and China using Apache Geode for their backend. Anyway, back to the point, I agree with you. Indian's population situation is really insane. Last time I was in India was in 1998 and the traffic situation was totally insane. All the red lights had "relax" written on them in English in an attempt to calm drivers down. You'd think the 2nd most populated country in the world…

What is wrong with Apache Geode?

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#159

Post by gohrt » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:24 PM UTC

jargnar wrote: post #93

A very real, slightly non-obvious problem is the size of the Indian population itself. There are so many people here that, competition is a stronger emotion than community. To an extent that sometimes it is considered normal to put someone else at risk for your benefit, while self-empathizing along the lines of "Hey, if I don't do it, someone else will stamp on that person to move ahead in life." Competition is every…

India is populous but USA is populous as well, and Japan is dense as well. The problem isn't too many people, it's insufficient per-capita wealth/opportunity.

A billion people for a thousand seats is the same problem as a million people with for seat.

Re: If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

#160

Post by stan_rogers » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 6:25 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #150

curiousgal wrote: post #96

Oh wow, just when I thought I couldn't be more disgusted by India for its rape culture, I come across this. Call me racist but I will never set foot in that country.

So according to you rape culture is not prevalent in any other country except India? Guess what? The number one, numero uno, rape capital of the World is the United States. I'll quote an article for you: http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world "India only ranks third for the number of rapes reported each year. What country ranks first? The United States. In India, a country of over 1.2 billion people, 24,20…

The obvious keyword here being reported. Not that I'm necessarily agreeing with the GP; it's just that rape/sexual assault is something that is generally under-reported for various reasons, including shame, fear of reprisal, futility, and so on. That makes any statistics relying on reported rape essentially meaningless when talking about "rape culture", since reports are more likely the less culturally acceptable something is.