Top developers can have a life outside coding • Hacker News Board

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#151

Post by kd5bjo » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:42 PM UTC

cagmz wrote: post #143

kd5bjo wrote: post #64

A lot of comments are bringing up top athletes as a counterexample, which leads me to believe they don't understand what a high-level training regimen is actually like. I have a relatively unique persepective on this[1], so I thought I'd clarify a few things. Any sport is both mentally and physically exhausting, and it only gets more strenuous as you reach the higher levels. Nobody can keep this up all day, every day…

I like the idea of applying less time, but more strenuous effort, towards programming, but how does someone do this?

I don't have the whole answer, but here are some things that you can practice regardless of what you're working on, and will make you a more valuable programmer if you get good at them:

- Getting the entire algorithm in your head before writing anything

- Predicting where the bugs will be in the code you've just written

- Shifting your attention back and forth between what this code is trying to achieve and the means by which it works

- Given the context in which your code will be used, predict how requirements might change in the future and structure your code so that those changes will require minimal refactoring

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#152

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #110

It's not that all good developers code as a hobby. A lot of them do, but most importantly almost no terrible developers code as a hobby. Recruiting developers isn't about finding ninjas so much as it is about avoiding the terrible developers. A nice github stat doesn't guarantee you are a good developer but it (almost) guarantees you don't suck. I completely understand asking potential hires for something they did ou…

This does not match my experience. I've interview many candidates with github profiles that looked active who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

What's worse is by reading their code on github, I will already form an opinion (sometimes very negative) before I even meet the person!

I've especially noticed that these developer bootcamps that are rising in popularity produce a lot of github cruft.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#153

Post by falcolas » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:46 PM UTC

jcoffland wrote: post #150

"One could think that having kids or building a family is a choice. Even assuming this is true (it really isn't)" What? Of course it's a choice. And I'm sorry but, you can choose to leave programming at the office and be a perfectly good programmer but if you don't love it so much that you do it for fun as well then you are not going to be a master programmer. Just like a classical violinist who only practices a few…

8-9 hours a day, 5 days a week, is not a "few hours a day".

You also might be surprised to find that most professional violinists don't practice more than 2-4 hours a day. Have a look around Google, you might be surprised.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#154

Post by ethanbond » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #86

egjerlow wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT: Have you read Infinite Jest? I'm wondering how much of the life described in that tennis academy reflects reality.

I haven't, but it's now next on my reading list; thanks for pointing it out.

It is such a daunting read, but goodness is it worth it.

I'm having a bit of difficulty getting into other books after having read it because the writing style itself spoiled me so much. It's the first book that I wanted to start over literally the same day I finished it.

Enjoy!

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#155

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

jcoffland wrote: post #150

"One could think that having kids or building a family is a choice. Even assuming this is true (it really isn't)" What? Of course it's a choice. And I'm sorry but, you can choose to leave programming at the office and be a perfectly good programmer but if you don't love it so much that you do it for fun as well then you are not going to be a master programmer. Just like a classical violinist who only practices a few…

The best software engineer I know doesn't hold a degree in the sciences, has a family with 4 children, and spends little to no time out of the office writing code.

I don't know if I agree with your assertion. There is more to life than programming, and I think, if anything, you need some of that to become a great programmer.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#156

Post by jcoffland » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

jkot wrote: post #9

I think this article is detached from reality. Most people who contribute to OS are on low income, unemployed or students. Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that, or are forbidden by their company. Being "top developer" is one of the most family friendly jobs that ever existed. You can work remotely at your own time. I quit cubicle and started working on opensource because I had family. > you mi…

"Most people who contribute to OS are on low income, unemployed or students. Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that, or are forbidden by their company."

This is so incredibly false. Many Open-Source devs are top programmers with real lives. I find that the corporate world's so called experts are usually the disappointing ones. In the corporate world becoming a guru is more of a political game than anything. In the Open-Source world, it's "show me the code" or GTFO.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#157

Post by green_lunch » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

I started my own company 5 years ago to have a life outside of coding.

The business depends on code, but I can choose when to go on vacation and work from home or at the office when I need to.

It also helps that my wife runs the company with me.

I finally made the decision to quit when my last boss called an emergency meeting on new years eve over webex, because she wanted to go to a party and also get our product released. She also is the one that caused our product to be delayed by at least a month due to her inability to manage the project.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#158

Post by dsq » Sat, May 21, 2016, 3:52 PM UTC

jasonme wrote: post #127

I'm from China, where hard-working with a lot of overtime work is advocated in almost every internet-related company. Developer here do 996 the whole year in and out (for those of you who don't know the concept of 996, it means working from 9 in the morning to 9 in the late for 6 days a week in the office. But sadly, usually, a lot of the developers can only leave the office after 10 or 11 at night). Everyone knows t…

This is an important comment for those of us wishing an inside view on the Chinese working culture.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#159

Post by Ingon » Sat, May 21, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #64

A lot of comments are bringing up top athletes as a counterexample, which leads me to believe they don't understand what a high-level training regimen is actually like. I have a relatively unique persepective on this[1], so I thought I'd clarify a few things. Any sport is both mentally and physically exhausting, and it only gets more strenuous as you reach the higher levels. Nobody can keep this up all day, every day…

I think that there are more weak points where sports analogy breaks - sports is generally about preparing for competition and competition is not a daily event.

If we continue with this analogy this would mean that the developers should be training for a while before hitting a day (or week) of an actual work, but we are actually expected to treat every day as a competition day. Another point is, that the training varies over the period with every practice having a different goal - some are harder, some are easier and there is a great emphasis on rest and not over-training. And finally, sports are frequently cyclic, based around seasons - with competition and non-competition seasons. Competition seasons are about getting to a top performance so you can hit these N competition with all you can, while non-competition ones are all about resting and getting your sanity back.

So, while there are some parallels, I don't think this is a great analogy. I don't think getting top performance day after day is possible on regular basis, but, unfortunately, some people are certainly expecting it.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#160

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, May 21, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

cagmz wrote: post #143

kd5bjo wrote: post #64

A lot of comments are bringing up top athletes as a counterexample, which leads me to believe they don't understand what a high-level training regimen is actually like. I have a relatively unique persepective on this[1], so I thought I'd clarify a few things. Any sport is both mentally and physically exhausting, and it only gets more strenuous as you reach the higher levels. Nobody can keep this up all day, every day…

I like the idea of applying less time, but more strenuous effort, towards programming, but how does someone do this?

I started five things a few years back and have had great results:

- I set up an email filter where if I'm not on the TO line, it skips my inbox for another folder. I only read that folder twice a day. If it's important, they'll write to me directly.

- I (almost) never accept a meeting with less than 2 hours notice. The exceptions are rare and far between.. and usually come down to a few legitimate emergencies. Poor planning is not an emergency.

- I never accept a meeting without an agenda. It doesn't need to be detailed but "I'd like to chat about X, Y, and Z" gives me the opportunity to prioritize, reject, or get you to someone more appropriate.

- I only answer my phone when I'm expecting a call. If you and I have a call planned, I will be there and respect your time by closing email, etc. If you're just calling me to catch up, I'll get back to you on my schedule.

- My phone & computer never enter the bedroom. You are welcome to email, slack, DM, etc me at 2am but you should assume I won't see it until the next morning.

Limit your distractions, take control of your time, and your work will become more effective and you'll feel better about what you accomplish.