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Libui: GUI library in C

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Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#151
Working with Atom has opened my eyes to the idea that the web technologies are the ultimate UI platform. HTML+CSS can build any user interface and allow extreme customization.

Atom is slow and chromium a resource hog, but these are limitations of the current implementations, not inherent to the technologies themselves. A Servo-based UI toolkit with well thought out DOM bindings could solve both of these problems spectacularly.

But I'm glad this exists and I'm excited to see a light cross platform UI library that works across multiple OSes and languages. I'll probably use this for my future native UI needs.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you lecturing me on visual impairment and disabilities? At no point did I claim you ignore that user base. >Many of us may not particularly like touch screens, but an incredible number of computers that run Linux/BSD these days have touch screens. Things should work out of the box for these computers whether or not you want one. Okay so after all that we get to the root of the issue. Instead of a good traditi…

I am trying to not come off as lecturing. My apologies if it was interpreted as such. You were making claims and I'm simply trying to provide examples of how other peoples computing experience might not match your own. > Okay so after all that we get to the root of the issue. Instead of a good traditional desktop experience, you want to provide a mediocre desktop/touch hybrid experience. Instead of doing one thing we…

I work with a lot of people who have desktops. I have two. I haven't seen anyone use a traditional desktop with touch. No one. Not once. My girlfriend is a 2d artist and she uses a wacom tablet for digital painting in photoshop. That's it.

I always disliked the huge buttons that come by default with some desktop environments, and I'm amazed the argument is "people use touch". As far as I and everyone around me is concerned, no they don't.

If it's an accessibility issue, it should be an optional solution for those who need it, not the default.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#153

This is a very good approach for the current times! As far as I understand from the source code, libui is a thin C wrapper that makes calls to each platform native ui framework. For instance, to create a window on OSX it calls the corresponding Cocoa function, for Linux the corresponding GTK function, etc. So, unlike Qt and GTK which are heavy cross-platform libraries because they can "draw" their own widgets themsel…

> [...] GTK is perfectly fine for Linux. This is great news, so now it is the best time to make thin wrappers around these stable things so that we can all go make useful software.. Hoping not to start any kind of framework quarrel, but my understanding was that quite many applications (such as Wireshark, Subsurface, and OpenShot) are moving from GTK to Qt very much due to Qt being more stable. Or is the main reason…

GTK has the advantage of being a C library with not that many dependencies (so, simple to wrap.) QT (at least in my very limited experience) has way more dependencies, some weird build steps (MOC anyone?) and writing stubs for it would require much more code.

That said, I haven't programmed a UI in about 5 years, so this might be completely outdated.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "big buttons" are that size because people have all sorts of accessibility needs different from your own What accessibility needs are you targeting when you make the buttons and titlebars bigger? Why did this change drop suddenly? Was there a cry from the majority of your users that the widgets are too small to use with desktop inputs? Usually when there are accessibility issues you add options to deal with tha…

> Usually when there are accessibility issues you add options to deal with that, you don't change everything for a relatively tiny percentage of your user base. Would you make all your widgets have max contrast and double the font size by default because it improves accessibility for the visually impaired? There are way more types of impairments than visually impaired. We do have high contrast themes to help with a s…

Don't normally comment online as I find it a lot of work (it's taken me about 5 hours to put together this pretty badly written response), but while there's a GTK dev here on topic I don't want to miss the opportunity.

> There are way more types of impairments than visually impaired.

Thankfully I have perfect eyesight, however I am very dyslexic. I have problems with spelling, but Google's search spell checker and voice recognition have made huge differences to me in that respect over the last year or two.

But relevant to GTK - I have a terrible short term memory. A goldfish like short term memory. I can barely remember a sentence when switching between windows, 5 numbers is a challenge (no distractions please) and remembering how another programmer abbreviated a variable's name is a huge distraction.

I can't organise IRL or digitally. When I'm programming terminal windows just keep piling up, because I can't remember what terminals are doing what (is that sitting at a prompt or is it watching a folder with inotify?). I could click through the open terminals and disrupt my chain of thought and forget what I'm doing or I could just open another terminal, keep working and do a closing session every so often.

So onto how GTK is making my life harder: by making widgets more accessible to people with impaired vision/touch screens they've made them bigger. I can now fit less on screen and I have to remember more. I have to move between windows more and I have to scroll more. This really is making my life much harder, I'm honestly getting lost on my desktop because I can't remember shit and I'm constantly having to switch windows - because there just isn't room any more for two side by side windows on 720p.

And it really never used to be this way. Compare Gnome Terminal with xterm. Yes gnome terminal is better, for instance you can turn off bold fonts (Myself and many other dyslexics have problems with bold and especially italics) and have a nice GUI for changing the settings. But it's visually huge. I'm pretty sure (unfortunately not checked at all, I use XFCE - because it's smaller on screen) with the default font settings you've got just about enough space to tile 120 columns of Gedit and a 80 columns of Gnome Terminal - but not something you'd actually write code with, by the time you've got Sublime's side bar open you're going to have to shrink the fonts. And find a window manager theme with smaller borders. And find a reduced size widget theme (these often don't shrink out much whitespace). And after that somehow you'll still feel cramped, maybe it's because everything has been unnaturally shrunk.

And, really ranting now, the web is the same, I'm starting to quite regularly zoom out on websites to make them more navigable, I'm getting lost scrolling between the massive headings and huge white spaces. I can't find the damn menu buttons and by the time I've found them I've forgotten why I wanted them and have to mentally backtrack (What am I doing? Why? So why was I reading this? What was the bit that sparked something? Oh yeah! Right, back to the menu! Where did that menu go again?...).

Going to the terminal example again if I want to tile my XFCE Terminal and a Digital Ocean tutorial I've to zoom Digital Ocean to 90%. And Digital Ocean are efficient with screen space.

I'm currently using a 720p 13" laptop display and I think my next laptop is going to have to have a 1080p screen, just so I can fit whatever I'm working on. I'll then have to override the DPI settings of course and generally have a broken display setup. I'm looking to buy hardware and run a nonstandard setup to solve the accessibility problems that GTK has introduced for me when solving accessibility problems.

As an analogy to the situation (on bad days) I feel it's like GTK/Gnome is running around shouting "EVERYTHING MUST HAVE WHEEL CHAIR RAMPS! NO STAIRS! ACCESSIBILITY HAS SPOKEN!" ignoring that sloped surfaces can be difficult/painful for those with hypermobility syndrome. And when it's brought up "I'm able bodied but my knees are getting sore" (AKA "your widgets are too big I'm clicking around too much") the response is that it's accessibility and wanting something different is denying wheel chair users. But this response is missing that an able bodied person is having problems (they're being annoyed by it because it's causing them difficulty) and if an able bodied person is having problems then there is almost certainly someone less able who is having even greater problems.

As in able bodied people are complaining your widgets are too big because they're finding they have a higher cognitive load because they're having to switch windows more often. The reduction in general accessibility (higher cognitive load) is traded to enable specific use cases and it's considered ok. In testing you able bodied people say "this is barely harder" and your specific use case say "this is great". But what's missing that there are other people with other disabilities you never tested - we don't speak out because there's not many of us and frankly it's not very easy, both to speak out and to make a meaningful contribution to something as complex as UI ergonomics.

Basically what I'm saying is, yes it is good to have options for disabled users. But forcing the default is not a good idea and you might find you're causing problems. The default route into buildings with access ramps is still normally a set of stairs.

For example I could request that bold and italic fonts not be used anywhere in a UI, for me this would be great, but for able bodied users this would be a step backwards and reduce accessibility (the UI can't highlight important text for instance). Able users would complain, and it would be a mild "oh I liked it when the top command put the total memory in bold, it made it pop out a bit" to which GTK would correctly say "but dyslexics find this approach much easier" but this conversation misses that there is another category of people with poor eyesight who find the bold emphasis really helps them find the important details in the UI. But because GTK has made removing bold and italic default (in the name of accessibility) the user with poor eyesight has no options to turn that back on, and the community is already galvanised against allowing bold, because they did a UI study and it helped dyslexics.

> Count yourself lucky that you don't have an impairment (right now).

Worst of all is if the "but dyslexics find this much easier" statement has accusatory undertones of ableism (Despite my quote I don't feel audidude has done this). That might lead to the poor eyesight user to agonizingly craft a response over 5 hours that tries not to offend anyone in the galvanised community, because they don't have dyslexia and don't understand the difficulties faced, maybe they really are being ableist. Alternatively, and much more likely, they'll just keep quiet and GTK will carry on oblivious, making life worse for them.

Now I have got to thank GTK for being really good with having highlightable text in dialog boxes so I can copy and paste into Google. Also after spending a lot of my childhood in Learning Support classes I have to thank GTK for all the hard work they're putting into accessibility, it isn't sexy, it annoys people but it's damn important (even when I think it's going wrong and sometimes makes me wish I worked in construction).

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this, even though the constant breaking of GTK apps after each update annoys me to no end. But you might want to discuss updating https://www.gtk.org/ and other sites for that matter. Quoting the first lines of the home page: "GTK+, or the GIMP Toolkit, is a multi-platform toolkit for creating graphical user interfaces".

Just a side note in case some representative happens to be around, the https link above delivers an invalid certificate.

And no content. I get a web server directory listing, with no entries.

The content only seems to be served via http.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#156
post #3

Finally. I'm hoping that a native UI toolkit that can be used via FFI from nearly any language might take a chunk out of the Web-as-application-delivery-platform mindset. I don't blame anyone for making non-native apps with Electron and HTML5, because it's so difficult to make them work on every platform. But here's to hoping someone finally got it right, and that native applications can take back some ground. Death…

I actually think that CSS is better for drawing with modern GPUs than native UI frameworks are. CSS is declarative, which enables global optimizations--very important on GPUs, where state changes are expensive and overdraw hurts. By contrast, native UI frameworks were designed for slow CPU rendering in the '90s via legacy APIs like GDI.

I believe you, but still my layman's observation is that the average cocoa/win32 ui feels much snappier than the average web app. I have no proof but I'm pretty sure most people here would back me up.

If it should be faster with CSS, why isn't it? In fact, I develop a web app. What am I doing wrong?

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#158

Documentation Needs to be written. Consult ui.h and the examples for details for now. :(

It needs to be written because when I put that note down the API wasn't stable. Now that it's mostly stable I can start writing the documentation, which should be very detailed. There's already bits of it in the docs/ folder, for a taste.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#159
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] GTK is perfectly fine for Linux. This is great news, so now it is the best time to make thin wrappers around these stable things so that we can all go make useful software.. Hoping not to start any kind of framework quarrel, but my understanding was that quite many applications (such as Wireshark, Subsurface, and OpenShot) are moving from GTK to Qt very much due to Qt being more stable. Or is the main reason…

Qt is better supported and easier to use compared to GTK. It's also probably the best cross-platform toolkit one can get right now. Was surprised to hear that even Linus got sick of dealing with GTK and ported Subsurface to Qt, but that's how it is.

Linus didn't port Subsurface to Qt, other people who were already experienced with Qt did. If you have a look at their talk at linux.conf.au it's pretty obvious that they had no idea what they were doing when they wrote the GTK+ interface. I mean they weren't able to do a proper star rating widget in GTK+ and blame GTK+ for that. But doing that with Qt is just the same amount of work and they didn't even write that themselves, but the one responsible for the Qt port did. So what they are actually complaining about is: There was no one with a basic understanding of GTK+ who wrote the interface for us.

Yes, GTK+ has lots of quirks and I curse it on a regular basis, but so do Qt and all other toolkits I know of. And yes using Qt for Subsurface instead of GTK+ was a good idea, since Windows and OS X ports benefit a lot from that, but if Dirk and Linus were responsible for the Qt interface, it probably would have been just as bad as the GTK+ one.

Re: Libui: GUI library in C

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually when there are accessibility issues you add options to deal with that, you don't change everything for a relatively tiny percentage of your user base. Would you make all your widgets have max contrast and double the font size by default because it improves accessibility for the visually impaired? There are way more types of impairments than visually impaired. We do have high contrast themes to help with a s…

Don't normally comment online as I find it a lot of work (it's taken me about 5 hours to put together this pretty badly written response), but while there's a GTK dev here on topic I don't want to miss the opportunity. > There are way more types of impairments than visually impaired. Thankfully I have perfect eyesight, however I am very dyslexic. I have problems with spelling, but Google's search spell checker and vo…

Thank you so much for writing this post. I know it must have taken quite a bit of time to put together. I don't think all the reasons about the choices we've made were necessarily accurate, but the post is so valuable on it's own it's not worth nitpicking.

I'm sorry that things have been getting harder for you. I'll share this information when we have our summer meet-up face to face to discuss the next years work.

I can't know for sure without studying (maybe you'd be interesting in doing a study with us?) but I'd think if we can get the additional scaling factors into libmutter (the compositor layer for GNOME) that you'd have more precise control over the sizing that would work for you.

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