Live data from Hacker News

The brain is not a computer

aeon.co

151–160 of 166 posts

Re: The brain is not a computer

#151

I don't see it. - The brain is more fuzzy, but it still stores the link between the smell of roses and the look of roses. Just as a probability, like a Bayes network. And you will fall for Illusions, just like a Bayes network can be wrong ("for a second I thought this was..." and than more information from the senses falsifies/corrects the probabilities). - The brain is imperfect in reading from memory, but it still…

To be even more pedantic:

- The brain's network is not very well understood. For example, half your body's neurons are in your cerebellum. There people that don't have a cerebellum, and they only seem to walk later, and have balance issues [0]. That is half of all your neurons, and until you do a scan, people can't tell you are missing them. Alternatively, we have Henry Molaison (known in literature as HM), who could not remember a thing from after his surgery to save his life. All the surgeons took was his hippocampus (and some other stuff) back in 1953, which we then found out was SUPER important for memory [1]. He lived to be 82 and died in 2008, incidentally. Suffice to say, the neurons, their local network, and the long range network (aka, your whole body) are all very important in terms of how it all works. You can take out a ton, and not loose really anything, or you can take out some special ones and never remember a thing again. The brain is not 'fuzzy' and really 'fuzzy' all at the same time. It's like lumping all of China's politics into just their Chairman's ideas; you loose any sense of what is going on.

-The brain's recall system is also not well known. As with HM's life, you take out this special part, and it all goes to shit. However, when HM sang or played music, he could do an entire song or piece, even if it was Indagardadavida's length. Also, he remembered shocks to his hand when a surgeon put a joke buzzer in one day; he was hesitant to shake the next day. Our memory is not in any way good or lossy. Look at PTSD victims, they remember it ALL. Typically, it comes down to the motivations of the person. If you have to remember for the future, like an important fact for a test, or the sound a wolf makes right before it leaps onto you, then you will remember it very well. If you don't need to remember, then you typically do not. Again though, the brain is not well understood and we all have experienced exceptions to this.

-Some people are better at recognizing, some are better at recalling, and we don't know why. People that are face blind [2] are really bad at remembering faces; Brad Pitt says that he is face blind. Some people are really good with faces and really bad with names, some are the opposite. Some are synesthetes [3] and will recall equations or speeches by the taste that they experience when doing it. Some people are savants and can recall an entire phonebook and then draw it, nearly as a cc, from memory [4]. Memory is a fascinating subject and whenever you think you know what is going on, something new opos up and kills the theory.

-Our brains can be very good at deterministic calculations. Any major league ballplayer is very good in the outfield (the D-backs excepted this year) and can very accurately catch a ball hit from 100s of feet away. They may not be good with math, but some of them are much better than any computer [5].

The brain is not well understood at this time. Calling it a computer is obvious nonsense, but it's a good working theory to approach from, especially considering we have no other real ideas.

[0] http://www.iflscience.com/brain/24-year-old-woman-born-witho...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Molaison

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

[4]www.neatorama.com/2008/09/05/10-most-fascinating-savants-in-the-world/

[5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet

Re: The brain is not a computer

#152
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're suggesting they do this without storing information? Hmm.

The author and several of his sources argue that they do this without internal mental representations of objects.

Is that supposed to be evidence for not being a computer? Perhaps someone should introduce the author to Anchor Modeling[1]. Every table with its own attribute, so you don't have an internal representation of objects, just the base attributes and relations, but you can retrieve a representation on the fly.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_modeling

Re: The brain is not a computer

#153
Regardless of the strength of the article's central assertion, it is interesting to consider how closely coupled our consciousnesses are to the stimuli we are actively receiving from our environment.

To continue with the IP metaphor that the author decries, it's like we only have crude wireframes and physics models in our heads, and we project the stimuli we receive to those models as best we can in realtime in order to create our conscious experience. Perhaps the sparsity of the "models" our brains contain is what allows to adapt/reuse them to comprehend such a broad array of phenomena.

The disorientation that people can experience during sensory deprivation or even extreme social isolation is perhaps another indication that the coherence of our conscious experience is so linked to our real-time environmental stimuli.

This all makes one wonder whether we could make better intelligent agents by somehow measuring the "coherence" of an agent's experience and turn that into a positive reinforcement learning signal.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#154
post #118
post #7

This article falls somewhere between a strawman argument and a deliberate misrepresentation of scientific understanding. > " But here is what we are not born with: information, data, rules, software, knowledge, lexicons, representations, algorithms, programs, models, memories, images, processors, subroutines, encoders, decoders, symbols, or buffers " We are born with most (if not) all of these things, and we develop…

To add to the fallacy that to think that simply because computations by common computers are done with a bits-and-bytes approach hardware-wise and processes in the brain are not that computers wouldn't be able to express computation that comes very close to processes in the brain: This is exactly a mapping from one computational calculus (e.g. "brain calculus") to another (e.g. binary logic) with a compiler. While it…

We do. Always have. See my main comment to OP on analog computation and its models that were used for NN's. Hint: One wafer (maybe 40 chips) of analog neurals takes almost 400,000 digital cores to emulate.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the computation in fire? BTW, I don't believe in free will. You mentioned earlier that there needs to be some magic somewhere and I don't think there is magic. Occam's razor and all that...

Fire is a process that converts chemical inputs into outputs, producing light and heat. It may be involve simpler reactions than protein synthesis but why does that matter?

> why does that matter?

Maybe that's a defining characteristic - complexity.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#156
post #44

My the article is misargued mush. It's hard to analyse all 4000 words of it but to pick on a few points: >But here is what we are not born with: information, data, rules, software, knowledge, lexicons, representations, algorithms, programs, models, memories, images, processors, subroutines, encoders, decoders, symbols, or buffers – design elements that allow digital computers to behave somewhat intelligently. Not onl…

I found it odd how he noted rooting and nursing instincts in infants, then said that we aren't born with rules or software. That seems self-contradictory.

He's saying "rules" and "software" are just metaphors to attempt to explain these instincts. They are a way of saying it.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#157
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just describing a different way to physically distribute the bits. From a mathematical standpoint it's still very clear that information-theoretic bits are going in and coming back out again. Or to put it another way, if you really think that isn't computing, you need to argue that this new piece of hardware also isn't computing: https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/05/Google-supercha...

ah, no, its not just twiddling bits. You can make analogies to that if it makes it easier to describe a process, but all analogies break down. One may create a mathematical model of the processes but unless that model mimics and predicts the biology so closely as to be indistinguishable from the reality, its still just a model. Your second assertion is simply wrong. Asserting that what the brain does isn't the same a…

> twiddling bits

This kind of phrasing implies that you aren't hearing what I'm saying. You're still picturing physical bits that can be twiddled. I'm not making an analogy to any physical bits at all, I'm not even making an analogy.

I'm talking about bits in the information-theoretic sense. If I can send a signal to a person and as a result that person can do better than random at picking an intended symbol out of a set of symbols, then bits of information were conveyed.

If the person can do the same thing at a later point in time, then bits of information were also stored.

No analogies are required, this is literally the definition of "information" and "bits" since 1948.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it wasn't computation. I said it wasn't a computer.

Then it's a device that performs many types of specific computation. The definition of a computer.

That's a pretty broad definition of computer, even moreso if you're going to claim that the way the human brain arrives at an answer is "specific computation". Moreover, its clearly not the definition used by the author of the article.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's a device that performs many types of specific computation. The definition of a computer.

That's a pretty broad definition of computer, even moreso if you're going to claim that the way the human brain arrives at an answer is "specific computation". Moreover, its clearly not the definition used by the author of the article.

The author screwed up by considering only digital computers. You keep ignoring addressing my main counterclaim that there's multiple models of computation, the brain matches one pretty closely, and so it's likely computing and/or a computer.

The evidence I presented of alternative models of computation, neurons, and implementations in those models is here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11731697

Re: The brain is not a computer

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it odd how he noted rooting and nursing instincts in infants, then said that we aren't born with rules or software. That seems self-contradictory.

He's saying "rules" and "software" are just metaphors to attempt to explain these instincts. They are a way of saying it.

Well, yes, but he's saying that "rules" and "software" are incorrect metaphors, and that they are a way of saying it wrong. I think that's an important distinction.

What strikes me in the section of the article with the six metaphors is that each one is "true" at a certain level of abstraction, and as time progresses, the abstraction gets thinner and thinner and closer to reality.

The author's claims that I have the biggest problem with are that brains don't store or process information. We clearly do. Our behavior depends at least partly on past experience and our perceptions of current circumstances. When I remember something, do I assert the read and address lines on a NAND chip and latch the data into a register? No, certainly not. Do I trace a weighted graph of neural connections forming a fuzzy cloud of meaning? At the least, that's closer to what I'm doing, and I'd still classify it as information storage and retrieval.

The author doesn't seem like they're attacking the imprecision of a metaphor. They seem like they're rejecting the "brain as a computer" metaphor outright.

Post reply on HN