Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial • Hacker News Board

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#151

Post by harry8 » Wed, May 18, 2016, 3:46 AM UTC

exelius wrote: post #2

From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants…

Here's a thing I don't understand - no control group.

Surely we've been trying to treat people with severe, long term depression by other means and not had success. This surely wasn't the first treatment that these people tried in trying to treat their long-term misery. How are both of those things taken together not as good as a control group that allows you to draw meaningful conclusions. It really sounds to me (although it would be better to see the quantification in the source docs) that this is a strong enough result to rule out noise.

If your results are strong enough, you don't need a control. If all 12 participants died while undertaking the trial would we say that it needs to be re-run with a control to be meaningful?

The results look strong. Go for pre-registered replication right away. Sod the control group. Everyone with severe long term depression outside the study is already suffering enough to be the control.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#152

Post by DigitalJack » Wed, May 18, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

jjawssd wrote: post #114

DigitalJack wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then you'd have to do a study of amphetamines and depression. It's really tricky to come up with a sham effect in a placebo without destroying the integrity of the control group.

Can't you physically isolate the two groups somehow?

The problem with studying a drug using control groups and placebos is that for some drugs (such as marijuana, LSD, etc.) people will know that they must have gotten a placebo due to the lack of effect.

Researchers will sometimes use a substitute to create some effect that a naive participant may believe to be the real thing, but it can be difficult to be convincing. This can damage the integrity of the control group because they would know they hadn't gotten the real thing (and thus possibly negating the placebo effect).

People who know they got the real thing may see benefits that are actually the placebo effect, and if your control group isn't able to control for this effect, it lowers the quality of your study.

There are also moral issues with tough studies such as last ditch experimental studies on stage IV cancers. Even in a double blind study, the research will know they are giving placebos to some of the participants, and thus have no chance of helping them.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#153

Post by fucking_tragedy » Wed, May 18, 2016, 4:46 AM UTC

alva wrote: post #140

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his family. Have any details you're comfortable sharing? Particularly the mental illness, what happened when they were triggered and how often they dosed?

Sure. They had an incredibly bad time with the trip, far worse than what you usually associate with a bad trip. Violence, screaming, paranoia, gibberish. All stuff (maybe apart from the violence) that can happen on a bad one, but this was extreme. Setting was familiar and safe, no external stresses during the period. This was his first time with mushrooms, although regular cannabis smoker (which also might have cause…

Thanks. I ask because I've also seen this happen before to someone who was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. They had a history of dosing often, enough that I'd consider it unhealthy for someone who had a clean bill of mental health. They've returned to "themselves", but clearly suffer significantly from the disorder along with their family.

It's more than sad that this can happen to people. I'm someone who has had beautiful experiences with mushrooms, but also have a family history of schizo-* disorders. It's put me off from taking psychedelics again. It's a risk I don't want to take now that I'm old enough to realize the possible consequences. I recently "lost" a cousin in his late 30s to drug induced schizophrenia after he experienced psychosis on cocaine.

Psychedelics are amazing substances, but family mental health history and set/setting are crucial to keep in mind before ingesting.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#154

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 18, 2016, 6:02 AM UTC

joslin01 wrote: post #116

maxxxxx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever come to LA let's do it :-) Should add: Would meditation experience help? I feel that my experience helps me dealing with fearful situation. The fear is there but I can watch it and it doesn't define me.

I'll definitely hit you up on that -- I got friends in LA. Yep meditation is yet another form of strengthening the resolution within yourself that you have power over your mind. Psychedelics show you this insofar as your effects are felt almost immediately -- this is why I said your thoughts can spiral up or down. Negative feelings must be taken responsibility for with one self and that is all. Even if you were burni…

[deleted]

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#155

Post by t4ngent » Wed, May 18, 2016, 6:10 AM UTC

joslin01 wrote: post #116

maxxxxx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever come to LA let's do it :-) Should add: Would meditation experience help? I feel that my experience helps me dealing with fearful situation. The fear is there but I can watch it and it doesn't define me.

I'll definitely hit you up on that -- I got friends in LA. Yep meditation is yet another form of strengthening the resolution within yourself that you have power over your mind. Psychedelics show you this insofar as your effects are felt almost immediately -- this is why I said your thoughts can spiral up or down. Negative feelings must be taken responsibility for with one self and that is all. Even if you were burni…

you might want to refer to the manual sections on tolerance and gentleness for a good exposition on why this kind of proselytizing is counter-productive =)

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#156

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 18, 2016, 6:28 AM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #71

apo wrote: post #62

From the study: > A logical next step would be to carry out a placebo controlled randomised trial in which the level of therapist contact is consistent between conditions. http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366... Depression studies are subject to well-known, powerful placebo effects, rendering this study's conclusions next to useless: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepr…

Firstly, while this is nothing like proper clinical trials, there are plenty of people who have anecdotes about psychedelics helping their depression before the idea of studying this was a thing. Secondly, if a placebo has a really high rate of success, and less side effects than currently available medication, then it could still be interesting. And thirdly, it's going to be really, really hard to test against place…

[deleted]

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#157

Post by corin_ » Wed, May 18, 2016, 6:29 AM UTC

reddytowns wrote: post #146

corin_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, while this is nothing like proper clinical trials, there are plenty of people who have anecdotes about psychedelics helping their depression before the idea of studying this was a thing. Secondly, if a placebo has a really high rate of success, and less side effects than currently available medication, then it could still be interesting. And thirdly, it's going to be really, really hard to test against place…

Just because something is really hard (or impossible) to do right, doesn't mean we should do it wrong and then pretend that it was done right.

Nobody is "pretending that it was done right" with regards to placebos etc. The researchers are very clear that they think this is a small and imperfect study that will hopefully pave the way for further research in the area.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#158

Post by a3n » Wed, May 18, 2016, 11:07 AM UTC

yaur wrote: post #139

dogma1138 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every medical procedure can or has to undergo double blind testing with control groups. Pretty much any treatment that has very aggressive effects is usually done without it. Even treatments that can be tested using a control group are quite often tested without it if you can isolate your metrics well enough. But technically you can still use a control group for psychoactive drugs because in every trial the first…

> possible effects or side effects in order not introduce bias giving people psychedelics without telling them seems pretty irresponsible to me even in a controlled setting.

I would guess that not telling someone could also affect the outcome. You might have a different experience from the treatment if you're wondering and waiting.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#159

Post by a3n » Wed, May 18, 2016, 11:16 AM UTC

tribby wrote: post #122

primitivesuave wrote: post #98

For those seeking to break down the barriers of the mind, psilocybin and mescaline are the most intelligent options. SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me) grew mushrooms and peyote cactus to enable revelations in the minds of consenting adults, and every single person who ingested these naturally-occurring organic substances thanked SWIM for a life-changing experience. That said, there are obvious risks to glorifying psychedel…

>there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose Nor psilocybin in a mushroom...

The psilocybin in a mushroom is going to be psilocybin in a mushroom.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#160

Post by joslin01 » Wed, May 18, 2016, 11:34 AM UTC

t4ngent wrote: post #155

joslin01 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll definitely hit you up on that -- I got friends in LA. Yep meditation is yet another form of strengthening the resolution within yourself that you have power over your mind. Psychedelics show you this insofar as your effects are felt almost immediately -- this is why I said your thoughts can spiral up or down. Negative feelings must be taken responsibility for with one self and that is all. Even if you were burni…

you might want to refer to the manual sections on tolerance and gentleness for a good exposition on why this kind of proselytizing is counter-productive =)

Excuse me? You think I'm proselytizing? My words echo Truth, which I have voluntarily shared to help all who read it. It has nothing to do with religion nor did I even bring one up.

You are merely be defensive against the greater Truth, and your ego is smug in its defense. I walk the holy path that only healers walk -- what path do you take? Smug dismissals that offer nothing of value? What path is that a part of?