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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#151

Post by m00dy »

cm3 wrote: post #56
Udo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles. My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that t…

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

>That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands.

I don't know anything about Germany nor Morocco. I am a Turk. I lived in Spain, Finland one year each and I'm now in Sweden. I felt that treatment against Turks in Finland. No matter what you do, if you say something about your origin, make sure yourself that something is going to be bad. Spain was awesome and I was totally accepted and respected by the society but NO IT jobs. So, I had to move to Sweden. From what I have observed so far, Sweden has a big immigration problem. I'm sure they will solve this somehow. But, the best I love about Sweden is that they are more open to foreign culture or people with foreign background comparing to Finland. They can also notice the difference between a kebab guy and a computer scientist. I'm not saying kebab business is low level job. It is more about mind-set.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#152

Post by fiatmoney »

It has particularly nasty resonances when Erdogan is alternately threatening to unleash massive population flows of middle eastern migrants into Germany and the rest of the continent, and offering to help "solve" the problem for the right payoff. https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuou...

Rather reminiscent of "Finlandization" during the Cold War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#153

Post by gkya »

hartator wrote: post #139
gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly differ…

Quoting my grandparent comment:

> In the end, though, this should be left to the authors will, to decide whether or not it is moral to say what he says. Because when state is involved the slightest, it can be involved more. Who decides what incites violence?

So to this I agree:

> Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't.

What I say is, the individuals should be considerate when using their freedom to speech. Freedoms bear responsabilities. One cannot say anything and go by. If what you say is lies, or pure insults, or if it's provocative, there will be consequences, or else it conflicts with the right to human dignity of the one(s) at the receiving end of your speech. One should be responsible and mindful of what he says.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#154

Post by tremon »

gkya wrote: post #78
gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

criticism of Erdogan is not really forbidden. Criticism in its every form is forbidden, if you're powerful enough

So it really is forbidden, just not enforced until you actually start making an impact?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#155

Post by 6stringmerc »

untothebreach wrote: post #150
6stringmerc wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for listing these; one of the most shocking observations I've had is how absolutely up-front Trump is about saying he'd basically gut the First Amendment because he doesn't like journalists. Having sources like you've provided is quite helpful. Why 'the press' hasn't savagely been aggressive and hostile toward him the way he has to them doesn't inspire confidence in me unfortunately.

My cynical opinion is that, unfortunately, "trump stories" == "clicks/viewers" == "more ad revenue", to the point where no news organization can afford to _not_ cover every ridiculous story about Trump.

No disagreement, I'm familiar enough with media revenue streams and what-not that I understand the "appeal" of coverage. It does kind of remind me a bit of the way media members 'covered' for Tiger Woods for all those years. As in, if you wanted access to him for interviews, content, etc, you'd better keep certain things out of print (so to speak). Skewering Trump would "curtail" access, or, more than likely, result in a lawsuit threat.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#156

Post by dracht »

egeozcan wrote: post #134
dracht wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Despite being here for decades they have made no effort to assimilate, in contrast to some other groups. 40% (!) of Moroccan youths has a criminal record. They speak poor Dutch. They don't consider themselves Dutch. Let us not pretend the effect was the cause.

So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes? Such a wonderful way to approach immigrants. /s Also, same arguments have been brought up against Turkish, Romanian and many other large group of immigrant in other countries. It also has a name: Racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...

>So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes?

Don't put words in my mouth, I said no such thing. You offered no rebuttal to what I said, only slander. Explain to me why Moroccan immigrants have not assimilated and why they are so grossly overrepresented when it comes to crime. To say this is all the result of the natives being racist towards Moroccans in particular, that they are forced into this bad behaviour by us, is absolutely ridiculous. They are problematic in France, Belgium and other countries as well. Any negative views towards them are the result of their own actions rather than some grand conspiracy to keep them down.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#157

Post by gkya »

studentrob wrote: post #146
gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

> You're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater.

Come on mate, I thought we're talking about political speech :)

With regards to Erdogan as a businessman, the thing is, he is using his position to prosper as a rich man. I repeat, he has no care about what happens to the country. There are no ideologies, no nothing here. He uses the state as a means to cash in what he can. And he has his circle of assistants etc., what he wants is to be able to steer the politics and ultimately the state the way he wants w/o any friction.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#158

Post by Tomte »

hartator wrote: post #139
gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly differ…

That's the predominant American view, which is pretty... extremist.

Sure, "free speech exactly like in the US" is a binary issue.

Free speech, as sensibly construed, is a whole spectrum.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#159

Post by tremon »

microtonal wrote: post #91
cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. But I fully agree with your observation. But I think there is hope. For instance, the mayor of the second-largest Dutch city (Rotterdam) is a Moroccan immigrant. Such people are role models for people with an immigrant background (you can make it in The Netherlands) and a Dutch background (in terms of acceptance).

Rotterdam is actually the largest Dutch city, though second in rank (Amsterdam is the capital, but it's smaller than Rotterdam).
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