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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#151

Post by sbov »

neutronicus wrote: post #150
bsder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

Why is that? If certain tales of the dark net are to be believed, it has enabled an unprecedented level of communication between abusers of children. Seems like an obvious "con" of widely-available secure communication. If you believe the "pros" outweigh it, say so, but don't pretend it isn't relevant.

Because it's usually used to emotionally manipulate people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#152

Post by Silhouette »

TACIXAT wrote: post #68
Silhouette wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a horribly counter-productive argument. This is obviously a politically charged subject, but let's try to be rational for a moment. It seems likely that by far the most prolific creators of child pornography today are... children. What today's parent and grandparent generations used to do in relative privacy behind the metaphorical bike shed, surely today's teenagers are doing with their phones and laptops,…

While I agree that privacy and secure communications are the best means to protect kids in the first world, there are still enough horrible people in the world who rape children and take pictures, as well, there is child sex trafficking. We shouldn't forget that these things exist and reduce child porn to snapchat and selfies.

We shouldn't forget that these things exist and reduce child porn to snapchat and selfies.

No, of course we shouldn't. There really are bad people in the world, and some of them really do do very evil things, and there really are good reasons to have police and security services, and they really do need reasonable powers to enable them to do their jobs and deal with the bad people.

But what we should do is keep these things in perspective and ideally set public policy based on evidence and rational arguments. Creating security loopholes that might help the authorities to find and stop a small number of genuinely evil people but might also create millions of new vulnerabilities to be targeted by other evil people (or even the same ones) isn't necessarily a good trade-off.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#153

Post by bicknergseng »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #146
bicknergseng wrote: post #145

I just had a thought: what happens if Apple complies with the order (say they lose the legal battle or something), but individual employees refuse to build the software? I think the verdict is out on whether or not Apple, a corporation, can be compelled to do this, but what if they can't find anyone to do it? Just thinking it _should_ be much harder to compel individuals to do something like this than it is to compel…

Ha! Folks will line up to do the job. I've refused to violate federal regulations (re wireless devices, bands and transmission rules) as a contractor and had the regular employees jump right in and volunteer for the job. At a Midwest manufacturer in a liberal (college) town.

Not actually interested in if people are willing to do ethically questionable engineering work; I'm interested in whether or not the government can compel them to do so.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#154

Post by btilly »

rogersmith wrote: post #125
CWuestefeld wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you, I also think this isn't the appropriate place for that discussion. I imagine that explains the downvotes you're getting.

Parent comment expresses incredulity at Obama's comment on the topic being discussed in the thread. I point out said comment is perfectly in line with the policies implemented by Obama and his administration during his two terms and OP's incredulity is unwarranted. Not sure how that's OT or inappropriate but furry muff, HN works in mysterious ways.

You would be better off having picked examples that are closer to the topic at hand.

Such as the fact that he voted for retroactive telecom immunity as a senator, supported increases in NSA surveillance as a President, and certainly signed off on the extraordinary measures taken to try and apprehend Snowden.

His stance on surveillance is clear. He has strongly supported it since 2008. (Before he was the Democratic nominee he spoke out against it.)

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#155

Post by cname »

wyager wrote: post #113
arebop wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make your own country less corrupt, more free, and better for the economically-worst-off, so that your own entrepreneurs may eventually overtake the authoritarian superpowers?

>and better for the economically-worst-off, Not that I disagree with this, but how is this supposed to help entrepreneurs? If anything, it will just increase the tax burden of running a business.

I'm wondering how myopia is going to help anything, including running a business.

EDIT:

I find it somewhat irritating that this needs to be stated, but helping the economically disadvantaged doesn't mean just raising taxes and giving everyone a welfare check. The narrative has been so well framed.

It could (and should IMO) mean creating a more just economic system while providing a real safety net. Ultimately, this would involve people being educated and able to obtain jobs that pay a decent wage.

There's some tax money involved in that, but I don't think we necessarily need to _raise_ taxes. Perhaps we just need to reallocate a bit from the war chest.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#156

Post by nickik »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #29
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government. It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

Its not 'the government' that is doing anything, its the FBI wanting to open one specific phone based on a legal construct that does not apply. Any person has the right to challange a legal order.

The founders and many other people have worked hard to creat a system that protects the people from government action. For this reason they implented and evolved a legal system.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#157

Post by nickik »

mozumder wrote: post #24
kelnos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? Yes, that's exactly what you do. I would much rather we let a few (more) crimes get through here and there. Weakening privacy for everyone isn't worth it.

You'll find the people value security more than privacy. This is why conspiracy to commit crime is already illegal. That's just how society is. Your choice on whether you want to live with the rest of society or not.

false dichotomy.

The reality is that security is also suffering when you weaken encryption. Do you want people to be able to track your children? Do you want criminals to know when you are home? Do you want stackers reading messages of their victims? Do you want rapist to know where you and your friends go camping?

These are just things outside the problem that their is a multibillion doller industry depending on encryption in the internet.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#158

Post by bsder »

neutronicus wrote: post #150
bsder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

Why is that? If certain tales of the dark net are to be believed, it has enabled an unprecedented level of communication between abusers of children. Seems like an obvious "con" of widely-available secure communication. If you believe the "pros" outweigh it, say so, but don't pretend it isn't relevant.

Because it is an argument that people fall back on when rational arguments are failing.

In addition, the "child pornography" that people want to use as justification is REALLY RARE. The biggest kiddie porn bust in the history of the US was Operation Delego which had 600 members worldwide. Most of whom were busted with good, old fashioned police work.

Now, let's talk about the common "child pornography"--Suzie has naked selfies on her phone. Do you really think that Johnny won't go to a dodgy Chinese site to get the iPhone crack to let him see those?

Relevant Dilbert: http://dilbert.com/strip/1996-01-24

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#159

Post by nickik »

xrorre wrote: post #55

The Apple situation annoys me because it's no longer about the web. It's about breaking crypto on a device which is vendor-locked. The same thing as breaking homegrown crypto, or DVD crypto; easy and trivial. The fact that Apple doesn't use ephemeral keys and can't simply throw away the key in the event of an incident is worrisome enough. Real crypto needs to be more compartmented than that. A bank is not secure beca…

The hole concept of end to end encryption works far better if the ends are actually secure. We use end to end encryption to protect our communucation one the move and our endpoint are protected with secure hardware.

Weakening end point security is certantly not as bad as going after tls (for example) but its still a vital piece of our trust chain.

And the smartphone will grow in importance as an authentification factor and that makes it even more vital.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#160

Post by headgasket »

ccvannorman wrote: post #118
adam12 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that White House petition is a honeypot.

This thread is a honeypot. Also buying any iPhone made after 2015.

are you being sarcastic? otherwise can you elaborate?
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