We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else • Hacker News Board

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#151

Post by ghaff » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #41

OpenDrapery wrote: post #29

I work in the "boring" old insurance industry, based in the midwest. I love reading articles like these, and as I read them I get excited and say to myself "yea!" and "spot on!". But they seem to center around startups and Silicon Valley. The truth is, when it comes to building, maintaining, and supporting internal, line of business apps, management isn't even pretending to look for high end talent. They want predict…

HN obviously has a large bias toward content that is relevant in Silicon Valley (understandably so). This makes it fairly likely that the content that is only relevant to SV still makes its way to the top of the front page from time to time. It may be counter-intuitive, but I find it easier to apply these types of articles to my non-programming work. My wife and I own a gym, and we need to hire personal trainers from…

You also highlight that there are a lot of jobs out there where you're basically hiring for competence (which includes being dependable, not being difficult to work with) at the right price. There are a lot of professions where, for the mainstream jobs, there really isn't a lot of payback in "greatness."

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#152

Post by zyngaro » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #117

bdavisx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

This is how I evaluate job opportunities once I understood that: if the software is not the profit center or the competitive advantage then run away!

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#153

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #117

bdavisx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

[deleted]

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#154

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

atonse wrote: post #138

dominotw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

This is one of those examples where a totally well intentioned move is completely misunderstood. What is the purpose of an interview? To see if someone's a good fit and works well with you. Interviews don't tell you that. Working with the people fixes that. At least these are paid contracts. It's one thing if they were unpaid, then sure, yes it sucks. But it's the equivalent of doing a freelance gig for a couple of w…

I think they find it disgusting because all the risk is shifted onto the employee. By the time 3-8 weeks have elapsed, the employee has definitely quit or lost their previous job, so if they don't get hired, they will be involuntarily unemployed, with no prospects because they've been busy with their "audition".

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#155

Post by vkjv » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #133

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

He did say it was something they could do in their off time, so they could still keep their old job while they worked on it, and they'd get paid for their time too. I think that's why it's 3-8 weeks, because some people have more time to work on it and some people less. I don't think it's great necessarily, and certainly not great for everyone (some people really have very little free time outside of work, kids, and…

This. It's important for them to understand their biases. This has a bias towards individuals who either are already contractors, do not have a job, or have large amounts of "free" time that is not dedicated to other endeavors.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with this as long as they understand their bias. Sometimes it's more important to pass on potentially great hires in order to weed out bad hires.

For what it's worth, I would never do this. I'm not going to quit my current job to take this kind of risk. I also don't have "free" time. I have several time consuming hobbies / commitments outside of work that I'm not willing to break for 3-8 weeks.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#156

Post by MajorLOL » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

>Those of us who have families simply can not afford to do this.

Then don't take the job? Your life choices (Children, wife, loan payments) aren't the fault or social responsibility of your prospective employer.

Why get so uppity about a job you aren't even going to apply for?

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#157

Post by kimdouglasmason » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #143

ghaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does go on to say that it's 10-20 hours per week that they can do on nights and weekends for which they are paid. That said, I don't really disagree with your basic point. Under the appropriate circumstances, some limited paid contract work can make sense. For example, for an industry analyst job, we used to ask for writing samples. In retrospect, asking them to write something on a specific topic (and paying for…

So candidates are expected to work evenings and weekends instead of spending that time with their families? The process seems to strongly favor young and single folks. Then again maybe that's fully intended. The tech industry has a huge ageism problem after all.

Ageism is so rife in the tech sector in the US that people don't even notice it because it's omnipresent. I would go so far as to say that in the Bay Area, actively discriminating against anyone with the appearance of being over 40 is the default behavior for tech companies.

For example, if you look over 40 and not a tech lead/manager and haven't been one, you won't be hired, as you will be seen as having a lack of career trajectory. The entire 'career trajectory' premise is inherently ageist.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#158

Post by DamnYuppie » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #131

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

I don't believe anyone is being treated poorly here. They are being paid for their time, worst case the individual could think of it as side work. I understand many people have family and commitments but I don't think this is unreasonable. You are after all given a choice in the matter.

The follow up argument is of course, feel free to insert exaggerated hysteria here: "what if everyone moves to this model"? There are worse things in the world then getting paid to interview with someone.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#159

Post by kimdouglasmason » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

MajorLOL wrote: post #156

>Those of us who have families simply can not afford to do this. Then don't take the job? Your life choices (Children, wife, loan payments) aren't the fault or social responsibility of your prospective employer. Why get so uppity about a job you aren't even going to apply for?

Children are a life choice? You're part of the problem.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#160

Post by progressive_dad » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

atonse wrote: post #138

dominotw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

This is one of those examples where a totally well intentioned move is completely misunderstood. What is the purpose of an interview? To see if someone's a good fit and works well with you. Interviews don't tell you that. Working with the people fixes that. At least these are paid contracts. It's one thing if they were unpaid, then sure, yes it sucks. But it's the equivalent of doing a freelance gig for a couple of w…

What's disgusting is the misuse of the "contractor" designation just as it is with Uber or Instacart.

When I work as an independent contractor I do so knowing that I am paying significantly higher taxes on that income, paying for my own health insurance, and managing my time in such a way that I can stay sane. I charge accordingly.

Is this company going to pay me the hourly rate they charge their clients during this "trial" period? Are they going to pay me extra because I'm working 40 hours a week and then doing this work overtime?

Because if not they are eventually going to find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit where they must designate these people as part time employees.

I've done an "interview" like this before, but it was 3 months not 3 weeks and they paid me my agreed upon contract rate up front for 15 hours a week work from home. They made a decision not to hire full time after the second month and let me know, but used my additional month of work. I was able to use the time and money to find a full time position during this period that was a good fit. That's fair.