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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

truepublica.org.uk

151–160 of 208 posts

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is not how negotiations work. You mean it's not how oligarchs want it to work. Proponents of unpopular policy proposals want to govern people, but they don't want to have to explain themselves to the people they propose to govern. >You don't make preliminary talks public. Just because it doesn't always happen, does not mean that it never happens, shouldn't happen, or can't happen. >Making the above process publ…

It worked almost like that in the USA with the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Text of the TPP totally kept secret, even from the US Senate and House. Before our "representatives" got a chance to read the treaty, someone forced a vote on trade authority. Now, there's a short period to read a long treaty, which is being changed by the "legal scrub" process, and there's one opportunity to vote on it, no debate on the provis…

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it:

* The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty.

* Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty.

* By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end of 2016, it will have been public for over a year, and we'll have change-bars for the "legal scrub" stuff Techdirt is so worried about.

My real objection to US concern over TPP is that TPP has minimal impact on US domestic law. If you're a New Zealander, or, worse, Vietnamese, I totally understand how the TPP is problematic. The idea that a treaty that mostly serves to normalize global trade rules around the ones already in place in the US has been "rammed through in the USA" seems pretty arrogant to me.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#152
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well don't forget the idea of direct democracy where we leverage modern IT and allow the people to vote directly on issues, eliminating the need for representatives whom are, of course, often corrupted by monied interests. Many movements and initiatives currently exist promoting this method of government[1] [1] http://aceproject.org/ace-en/focus/direct-democracy/citizen-...

The idea of open citizen voting directly on all issues terrifies me. I see democratic representation as a way to pay someone to read and understand all of the legal jargon most people won't take the time to bother with. People don't take time to read their medicine bottle warnings, let alone the contents of the new Higher Education Act. I'm honestly afraid that righteous attitudes fueled by ignorance would rule. It w…

The idea of open citizen voting directly on all issues terrifies me. I see democratic representation as a way to pay someone to read and understand all of the legal jargon most people won't take the time to bother with.

Except they don't really either.

They typically have a rather large staff to do that for them, and paid lobbyists fill in the rest, along with large contributions of course.

To be honest, I find this lack of faith in the intelligence and integrity of your fellow man/woman rather disturbing, especially in this current social-justice warrior environment where we are all depending more on each other to get things right.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#153
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've read the comments you are replying to. Negotiators make proposals which might seem outrageous. Nobody thinks they will get drafted. It is a step towards getting a concession from the opposing side. Just like in the movies. One side starts at 4000, the other at 1,000 and they meet at 2,500.

If they had to negotiate in public, they would no longer be able to argue this way, you are correct. They would also be unable to make concessions and compromises which are bad for the voting citizens of the country. And they would have to be clear about what their policy objectives are. You keep saying "but... but... it would be different from how it is now!" all over this thread (and are frequently rude and condesc…

No, this is not what I am saying. I'm saying that you have unrealistic expectations. You expect the general populous, the media and the opportunistic politicians to act in a perfectly rational way. In this world of yours, taking things out of context, twisting them, playing on people's emotions, narcissism and fear cannot block the ALMIGHTY logic.

Taking the condescending approach is much saner than the alternative when everybody is very naive.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human inventiveness is infinite, can take us to the moon and land supercomputers in our hands... but apparently making smart business and transparent democracy compatible is just too damn difficult.

Human stupidity is infinite, not our inventiveness. Einstein's words, not mine.

He probably didn't say that. As http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/04/universe-einstein/ points out, the original saying was attributed to a "great astronomer", then followed by "To-day we know that this statement is not quite correct. Einstein has proved that the universe is limited." These later got merged.

In any case, you are making a fallacious argument from authority. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal... :

> A common example of the fallacy is appealing to an authority in one subject to pontificate on another - for example citing Albert Einstein as an authority on religion when his expertise was in physics.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#155
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not meant as an insult, really. You genuinely don't understand how politics works at all. It's not just some idiot talking crap about something you're working on. This isn't a college project. It's someone putting your entire past, present, and future on television and the radio making false claims about you. It's someone making your personal information known publicly so you can receive threats. If you don't…

What you've described is the case about any law or policy. And yet people debate them. Details of them. On the floor of congress, around the dinner table, on talk radio, on TV news, all the time. In public. And people don't whine and cry and complain about how mean voters are. Why should the corporate policymakers who write the TPP/TPIP get a special shield? Are they particularly sensitive and fragile as a class? Or…

Really? People debate the negotiation of international treaties? Can you point 2 or 3, please, since my memory is not what it used to be.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#156
post #148

It seems like many people don't really understand how lobbies work. Corporations' interests aren't identical so they cannot be defended by one lobby. And there are lobbies defending non-corporate interests. And those can be a. quite powerful b. quite nefarious. The secrecy during negotiation is necessary because "someone soemwhere has a good reason to oppose something". The fact that there are many somewheres, someon…

> "someone soemwhere has a good reason to oppose something" Especially since TPP is (in large part) designed to prevent China steamrolling entire industries and crushing foreign economies through shear size and sketchy economic measures. If the negotiations are public China has way more time to react to the measures, either by working around them or by threatening countries until they drop out. TPP may or may not be…

If that would make China stop their "sketchy economic measures" I don't see an issue here.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#157
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human stupidity is infinite, not our inventiveness. Einstein's words, not mine.

He probably didn't say that. As http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/04/universe-einstein/ points out, the original saying was attributed to a "great astronomer", then followed by "To-day we know that this statement is not quite correct. Einstein has proved that the universe is limited." These later got merged. In any case, you are making a fallacious argument from authority. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arg…

In fact, I don't care that Einstein told it. Or didn't.

I quoted it because it sums my thesis pretty well. People are very, very stupid. You cannot count on them not being swayed by some pretty words and blowing the whole treaty out of the water with some misguided protests.

Perhaps if you frequent HN, you don't know how stupid people are, because you only talk to the the smartest 10%.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#158
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to negotiate in public, they would no longer be able to argue this way, you are correct. They would also be unable to make concessions and compromises which are bad for the voting citizens of the country. And they would have to be clear about what their policy objectives are. You keep saying "but... but... it would be different from how it is now!" all over this thread (and are frequently rude and condesc…

No, this is not what I am saying. I'm saying that you have unrealistic expectations. You expect the general populous, the media and the opportunistic politicians to act in a perfectly rational way. In this world of yours, taking things out of context, twisting them, playing on people's emotions, narcissism and fear cannot block the ALMIGHTY logic. Taking the condescending approach is much saner than the alternative w…

> taking things out of context

Who gets to establish the context in the first place?

I would rather have naive Carter than condescending Kissinger represent me.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#159
There's so much mistrust and doubt that it's hard to see a solution that would satisfy all when it comes to communicating political processes with the public. Sure, we all might prefer for the process to be open, to have edits and additions recorded together with the "who" in some kind of revision system, but would we then trust those who maintain the repository?

If we do; who would then be trusted to read through the 600 page document and give an objective report on it's content? Because it has to be viewed in context, right? Not just a single paragraph used as click bait to up the advertising revenue. Who would we agree on should be considered a "real journalist"?

It's tricky. We fear what we don't know and distrust those who do.

A dreamy solution would be a system that allows politicians to comment on laws and voters to assign and re-assign points to those they agree with. Voters wouldn't decide laws but be able to show their support for different view points which we could graph over time and match against politicians votes.

But, yeah, internet voting is equally tricky.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked almost like that in the USA with the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Text of the TPP totally kept secret, even from the US Senate and House. Before our "representatives" got a chance to read the treaty, someone forced a vote on trade authority. Now, there's a short period to read a long treaty, which is being changed by the "legal scrub" process, and there's one opportunity to vote on it, no debate on the provis…

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it: * The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. * Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty. * By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end o…

> The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty.

Its not a treaty. If it were a treaty, it would have to be ratified by a 2/3 vote in the Senate, and could, indeed, not be modified on a line-item level. What is put before Congress is a regular US law, not a treaty ratification, that needs a mere majority, but in both houses, and which just happens to be intended to implement an non-treaty agreement negotiated by the executive.

The US Congress does, really, have line-item authority over regular US laws.

> Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty.

No, its not. Its a (without binding effect, since Constitutionally the Congress cannot bind its own future actions) commitment as to how Congress will apply its powers after such negotiations. The power to negotiate with foreign powers and submit whatever it wants to the Congress after such negotiations is inherent executive power that requires no authorization.

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