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Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#151

Post by rdancer »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #100
tptacek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you cannot. Evidence derived from facts learned from torture is also excludable.

Sure, you can. It all depends on who gets to define "torture." If they can find a judge who believes the iron maiden isn't torture while the anal pear is, then guess what... the government will use the iron maiden. Even if they can't find such a pliable jurist, they'll have no problem getting a John Yoo to write an executive memo that justifies whatever they want to do to you, and let the courts sort it out later. Th…

> getting a John Yoo to write an executive memo

The memos didn't provide de iure indemnity. There is no constitutional basis, in fact the proposition that a memo can supersede the Constitution is idiotic on its face.

The failure is the de facto doctrine of absolute executive immunity. It has two prongs: 1. "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." 2. When the perpetrator follows president's orders, also not illegal.

Nevertheless, since there is no legal basis, there is nothing preventing the next government from prosecuting them.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#153

Post by i2shar »

FussyZeus wrote: post #41
toomuchtodo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All bets are off if the iPhone is power-cycled. Best bet if you're pulled over by authorities or at a security checkpoint is to turn off your iPhone (and have a strong alphanumeric passcode). Excellent advice. Even better, if you're about to pass through US customs and border patrol, backup the phone first, wipe, and restore on the other side. Of course, this depends on your level of paranoia. I am paranoid.

Wiping the phone doesn't help you. Using the strong password renders the information inaccessible, at least as inaccessible as your phone backup is. Touch ID isn't re-enabled until the phone's passcode is used. Presumably if the authorities have access to your phone's memory they also have access to your laptops, and neither will do them any damn good. And it's paranoia if there's a legitimate threat, that's just cal…

Could the "code equivalent" of your fingerprint be stolen by a rogue app if it's allowed to read it? I don't have a touchId phone but have wondered what would happen if your "print" is stolen -- passwords can at least be changed.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#154

Post by CamperBob2 »

rdancer wrote: post #151
CamperBob2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you can. It all depends on who gets to define "torture." If they can find a judge who believes the iron maiden isn't torture while the anal pear is, then guess what... the government will use the iron maiden. Even if they can't find such a pliable jurist, they'll have no problem getting a John Yoo to write an executive memo that justifies whatever they want to do to you, and let the courts sort it out later. Th…

> getting a John Yoo to write an executive memo The memos didn't provide de iure indemnity. There is no constitutional basis, in fact the proposition that a memo can supersede the Constitution is idiotic on its face. The failure is the de facto doctrine of absolute executive immunity. It has two prongs: 1. "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." 2. When the perpetrator follows president's ord…

The memos didn't provide de iure indemnity. There is no constitutional basis, in fact the proposition that a memo can supersede the Constitution is idiotic on its face.

Yes, and that's what I meant by "let the courts sort it out later." The Constitution's not much help either way, being full of imprecise, hand-waving language and vague terms like "cruel and unusual." It was anticipated by the Constitution's authors that it would be of use only to a moral government.

Nevertheless, since there is no legal basis, there is nothing preventing the next government from prosecuting them.

I wonder if that's ever happened in the US? Does anyone know?

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#155

Post by joezydeco »

studentrob wrote: post #86
joezydeco wrote: post #43

Could DOJ slap Apple with an injunction forbidding deployments of new iOS releases until the San Bernadino case is concluded? If Apple can't launch new iOS versions, can they still launch new iPhones?

By saying what exactly? That an unhackable iOS is illegal? That's not currently true and it is the precedent that everyone believes the DOJ would like to set, but that the DOJ keeps denying.

I'm just thinking out loud, but who knows? DOJ has been pretty creative about making this issue more critical than the other times they've tried to unlock iOS devices (because, of course, terrorism)

What if the feds decide that an O/S update closes a zeroday that the NSA was using (note they've been really quiet here) and interferes with an FBI investigation in process?

And yeah, DOJ keeps saying it's just the one device, just this one time. What happens if they suddenly change course just to prevent iOS from getting more secure?

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#156

Post by ymse »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #98

If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself" - George Orwell, 1984 - Apple, 2016

That brings to mind this classic..

Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology—where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests purveying contradictory truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death, and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R706isyDrqI

They should re-run this commercial for iPhone 7. "On September 24th, Apple Computer will introduce iPhone 7. And you'll see why 2017 won't be like 1984."

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#157

Post by jarjoura »

Hmmm... this absolutest attitude by Apple begs the question for me, are we SURE we want to have phones that absolutely cannot be unlocked when the owner is no where to be found/dead?

It's such a grey area and I will probably get down voted for commenting this way. I 100% agree that the power, in the wrong hands, is horrible, but can't we talk about this in a way where there's some kind of middle ground? All I've been reading are either extremes.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#158

Post by mtgx »

ewzimm wrote: post #148
zaroth wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they have made the Secure Enclave allow updates on a locked device without wiping the key in the first place? Either they didn't think it through, assumed they would never be compelled to use it as a backdoor, or perhaps they were afraid some bug could end up having catastrophic consequences of locking a billion people out of their phones with no way to fix it? Do we even know for certain that the Secure En…

From what's been said, it seems like it was made to be updated so that Apple could easily issue security updates. They've already increased the delay between repeated attempts at password entry. Probably they were worried about vulnerabilities or bugs that hadn't been found and wanted to maintain debugging connections to make repairs easier. A tamper-resistant self-destruct mechanism with no possibility of recovery i…

How much easier? If all they had to do to not have access to it themselves is to ask the user for his password when there's a new update, that's hardly that inconvenient...

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#159

Post by TheCondor »

jarjoura wrote: post #157

Hmmm... this absolutest attitude by Apple begs the question for me, are we SURE we want to have phones that absolutely cannot be unlocked when the owner is no where to be found/dead? It's such a grey area and I will probably get down voted for commenting this way. I 100% agree that the power, in the wrong hands, is horrible, but can't we talk about this in a way where there's some kind of middle ground? All I've been…

Write your pass code on a piece of paper, put it in an envelope, and staple the envelope to your will and deposit it with your lawyer. Nothing prevents you from telling loved ones your pass code.

They give you the choice.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#160

Post by blamarvt »

jarjoura wrote: post #157

Hmmm... this absolutest attitude by Apple begs the question for me, are we SURE we want to have phones that absolutely cannot be unlocked when the owner is no where to be found/dead? It's such a grey area and I will probably get down voted for commenting this way. I 100% agree that the power, in the wrong hands, is horrible, but can't we talk about this in a way where there's some kind of middle ground? All I've been…

Isn't this problem already solved in the non-tech world through a last will and testament or a bank lockbox which contains passwords you want people to have in the event of your death?

I'm not sure it's a perfect solution but might be better than counting on someone to reverse engineer or hack into your phone.

If you're serious about encryption you should always have a backup key somewhere... unless you want a single point of failure (you). Both should be an option.

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