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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#151

Post by nickik »

edko wrote: post #136
nickik wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly disagree. That you even say something like this, shows how privliged of a state you must live in. Beeing spyed on by the same institution that has the monopoly on violence. If that institution stops liking me, I have a huge problem, a potentially life threatning situation. If the state of Iran has a simular problem with me, I don't care because they dont have a police force and an army in central europe.

Yes, it is said from my subjective point of view. I am not advocating for any state to spy on me, though. It is interesting that you mentioned the state of Iran. They are, for example, responsible for the assassination of 85 innocent Argentinian civilians in '94, and I am sure of many other crimes around the world too. They did not have a police force or an army in Argentina. So, I think one should care.

One should care, but the question is what is more relevant. It is true that governments can act outside of their border, but its a lesser concern.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#152

Post by saulrh »

jacobrobbins wrote: post #147

This is the correct path forward to move society into a digital era. It follows the well established principle that the state uses force in legally proscribed ways to maintain security. Known as the “monopoly of the legitimate use of force”, this is a core concept of modern law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence ). This concept carries over cleanly from the past into the digital era. In this case go…

Use of force requires transparency and regulation to avoid corruption. That's why we have things like a separate judiciary, warrants, publicly available court documents, freedom of information requests, and so on and so forth. The use of force is also minimized wherever possible; warrants restrict the scope, both for arrests and searches, and are filtered through the aforementioned public and separate judicial system. Then we have things like the Posse Comitatus Act and use-of-force guidelines encouraging or mandating diplomatic and less-lethal attempts when possible and limiting force to dedicated peacekeepers.

Governments have been using their digital force violently, indiscriminately, and secretly. None of those are acceptable even on their own and all three together is outrageous.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#153

Post by codys »

jacobrobbins wrote: post #147

This is the correct path forward to move society into a digital era. It follows the well established principle that the state uses force in legally proscribed ways to maintain security. Known as the “monopoly of the legitimate use of force”, this is a core concept of modern law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence ). This concept carries over cleanly from the past into the digital era. In this case go…

This is an interesting thought to consider. I'd note that there are people who aren't very happy about the present state of SWAT team usage, prosecuting folks in such a way to require plea deals, and other excesses in the state's exercising of it's powers.

On a specific line:

> If your objection to this is [...] you are also arguing that strong encryption [...] should not be allowed for public use

This is a false equivalence: asking for restrictions on the state is not equivalent to asking for restrictions on the public.

Also in general, there is no requirement to make "digital violence" the same as "physical violence". The state's use of violence is restricted by law, I don't see a reason the forbidding of "digital violence" would fall outside the legal framework already established.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#154

Post by yoo1I »

rudolf0 wrote: post #95
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

Am I the only one who has no issue with these kinds of things? As long as they're treated like a regular wiretap, and only used on a crime suspect with a lawful warrant, what's the actual problem with this?

Because by taking complete control of a suspects computer, with a software that's essentially a version of backorifice, you're mudding up all the evidence you might have found. A wiretap is completely passive. Sure one might fake that data as well, but in it's nature it's different from taking control of the whole computer, I would say.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#155

Post by mkesper »

marvin wrote: post #134
alexandercrohde wrote: post #132

I think this really illustrates one of the biggest concerns with concentrating software power in the executive: what if a totalitarian seizes control? How much damage can they accomplish? Last time, less than 100 years ago, 2/3rds of the Jewish race was eliminated. How much damage could be done to a targeted minority in the information age? Governments by my account, have killed (6 million) an order of magnitude more…

If you're referring to the Holocaust, the state-orchestrated mass-murder part of it was actually ten million dead, not six.

And there is no something as a 'jewish race'.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#156

Post by mioelnir »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #132

I think this really illustrates one of the biggest concerns with concentrating software power in the executive: what if a totalitarian seizes control? How much damage can they accomplish? Last time, less than 100 years ago, 2/3rds of the Jewish race was eliminated. How much damage could be done to a targeted minority in the information age? Governments by my account, have killed (6 million) an order of magnitude more…

When Snowden's NSA leak had just started, there was a podium discussion about it on German TV. Well, a few, but in one specifically one of the guests was a lesser german TV celebrity, known for science shows if I remember correct. If I had to guess, I would say he was probably born in Germany, but his family immigrated. And that background is plainly visible. And that is important because of one sentence he said that practically no german with a german heritage of 80 years or more would have dared to say -- "If Nazi Germany had the NSA's surveillance capabilities, the Holocaust would have been over in a month."

And this is not a theoretical worry, in an interview with Gen.Alexander there was a question whether he is worried about building this technological infrastructure and its abuse potential by future potential successor entities. His reply was along the lines of "Nothing will come after us." Which to a German, strikes a lot of similar chords to Nazi Germany's eternal Reich rhetoric.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#158

Post by ptaipale »

anon4711 wrote: post #130
ptaipale wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, very likely the same can be said about anti-nuclear protesters: they're not excluded for "political reasons", but for criminal actions which are "actual cause". Or so someone says. (Though in the case of this teacher, it looks like no crime could be cooked up). With AfD I've heard of trying to use just the political alignment as a reason (couldn't find the link just now).

You're missing the key difference here: The maximum an anti-nuclear protester could hope to achieve through his or her actions would be to have the country quit nuclear power generation, nuclear waste storage, etc. The political views of a far-right politician such as Höcke (probably aka Landolf Ladig[1]), if you translate them into what he hopes to turn Germany into, threaten the liberal democratic basis of the Germ…

This is drifting beside the original point, but my understanding is that the anti-nuclear movement in Germany has established a non-negligible violent culture. If you go to these protests, you know you're going to participate in or give vocal support for violent action.

http://www.dw.com/en/clashes-between-police-and-anti-nuclear...

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#159

Post by rudolf0 »

yoo1I wrote: post #154
rudolf0 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who has no issue with these kinds of things? As long as they're treated like a regular wiretap, and only used on a crime suspect with a lawful warrant, what's the actual problem with this?

Because by taking complete control of a suspects computer, with a software that's essentially a version of backorifice, you're mudding up all the evidence you might have found. A wiretap is completely passive. Sure one might fake that data as well, but in it's nature it's different from taking control of the whole computer, I would say.

Perhaps. But no-knock search warrants are also legal. The police can break into your house and put cameras or microphones in it with a warrant. Even though the process of breaking-in does affect the evidence a little, or even opens the possibility of a cop planting drugs or something, it's generally still accepted in court.

This is basically the same thing as using malware for surveillance. I'd argue the malware is even less invasive.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#160

Post by johnsea »

johnsea wrote: post #137
Xylakant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conveniently letting out the part about the racist remarks which are the actual cause. I'm all in favor of not letting racists teach children.

I'm against censoring. What I read here: >>hatte ... von einem "lebensbejahenden afrikanischen Ausbreitungstyp" gesprochen - was von Experten als rassistisch gewertet worden war [1] http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...

HN doesn't disappoint ;-) knew already at writing time that this will deplete karma. (Nevermind, I have enough :-)
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