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Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

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Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#151

Post by Frondo »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #105
atmosx wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back in 2009 when I was getting into bitcoin, it was widely described as a "stateless currency" and not just an alternative to Visa or credit cards. Having a background in economics, bitcoin looked to me like a truly revolutionary technology and if it was adopted en masse would change politics forever. No state or political entity will EVER support en masse a currency that it does not control and/or is NOT backed b…

Well this is the point. If private citizens adopted BTC over their nation's currency it would completely upend the political power structures - which arguably is the most democratic thing possible. No nation state would ever encourage it, but in theory it would flatten the world to the greatest extent ever - moreso than any transportation technology (shipping, airfreight etc...) ever.

It wouldn't.

If anything, it would vastly concentrate power further in the hands of a few--except this time, those few would be the miners and core developers.

Say "the people" wanted to vote to increase the pool to 25 million coins, instead of 21. That is a pretty basic form of political power to exercise, saying "we want to change this structure that affects our lives, let's vote on it".

How would "the people" hold that vote?

The answers I've gotten in the past, when I ask this question, have been one of:

  * Just patch the software, and if 51% of the miners accept it, that's it!
Or...

  * Currency shouldn't be under democratic control.
Neither of those statements is anything like democracy. And those attitudes seem to be pretty prevalent in the bitcoin world.

It's for that that I could never, ever endorse Bitcoin in any way. My interest is in pushing for a greater distribution of power--less concentration in the hands of a few--and doing so that actually engages with everyone, whoever they are, open source dev or not.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#152

Post by AndrewKemendo »

Frondo wrote: post #151
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is the point. If private citizens adopted BTC over their nation's currency it would completely upend the political power structures - which arguably is the most democratic thing possible. No nation state would ever encourage it, but in theory it would flatten the world to the greatest extent ever - moreso than any transportation technology (shipping, airfreight etc...) ever.

It wouldn't. If anything, it would vastly concentrate power further in the hands of a few--except this time, those few would be the miners and core developers. Say "the people" wanted to vote to increase the pool to 25 million coins, instead of 21. That is a pretty basic form of political power to exercise, saying "we want to change this structure that affects our lives, let's vote on it". How would "the people" hold…

We don't disagree.

If power moved from governments to a handful of developers "it would completely upend the political power structures."

It is democratic is because people are voluntarily adopting BTC where alternatives exist - which is unprecedented in the history of money.

They vote by acting.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#153

Post by dnautics »

bduerst wrote: post #107
slg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with an economics background, I'm surprised you think the biggest problem is the statelessness of Bitcoin. The biggest economic problem to me has always been an unintelligent control of the money supply. You can criticize some of the actions that many central banks do to manipulate the economy, but I have a hard time buying the answer to bad management is no management.

Exactly. The Fed or CBRC may not be perfect with their policies, but at least they're beneficially aligned with the future and stability of their currency (rather than a group of rational self-interested actors).

"they're beneficially aligned with the future"

how's that divide between the rich and poor going? The fed has been upwardly redistributing wealth especially dramatically for the last 40 years since when the Nixon closed the gold window. I suppose if you think creating a kleptocratic state is beneficial for the future, then your statement rings true.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#154

Post by [deleted] »

bduerst wrote: post #107
slg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with an economics background, I'm surprised you think the biggest problem is the statelessness of Bitcoin. The biggest economic problem to me has always been an unintelligent control of the money supply. You can criticize some of the actions that many central banks do to manipulate the economy, but I have a hard time buying the answer to bad management is no management.

Exactly. The Fed or CBRC may not be perfect with their policies, but at least they're beneficially aligned with the future and stability of their currency (rather than a group of rational self-interested actors).

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#155

Post by pjojojje »

slg wrote: post #52
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #30

Back in 2009 when I was getting into bitcoin, it was widely described as a "stateless currency" and not just an alternative to Visa or credit cards. Having a background in economics, bitcoin looked to me like a truly revolutionary technology and if it was adopted en masse would change politics forever. The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. Whomever control…

As someone with an economics background, I'm surprised you think the biggest problem is the statelessness of Bitcoin. The biggest economic problem to me has always been an unintelligent control of the money supply. You can criticize some of the actions that many central banks do to manipulate the economy, but I have a hard time buying the answer to bad management is no management.

I honestly have no clue how someone can claim to be schooled in economics and yet be so wrong.

Have you been hiding away for the last 7 years? There are so many objections to central banks its difficult to know where to start, but just one question, you truly believe any group is capable of making gross monetary decisions that affect billions of people didn't we go with capitalism because markets beat kings?

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#156

Post by bdhiehihhd »

pbreit wrote: post #77
supster wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money supply is fixed to 21 million. Fortunately, the coins are basically infinitely divisible, so as the coins become more valuable (assuming over the long run that coins are used for larger and larger amounts of commerce rather than speculation), small transactions simply happen at smaller units. In other words the system is steadily deflationary instead of the highly volatile inflationary system we currently h…

When it comes to volatility, bitcoin is at one end of the spectrum and every other currency at the other.

This is an ignorant view.

Bitcoin is tiny, its measured in billions. How much did the Canadian currency just lose in the last view weeks? That amounts to hundreds of billions of vaporized wealth.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#157

Post by bdhiehihhd »

dragontamer wrote: post #133
CyberDildonics wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally described the US dollar, maybe every currency.

Actually the US Dollar is inflationary, which means those who hoard US Dollars lose out in the long term. You lose approximately 2% to 3% depending on how well the Fed actually hits its benchmarks. BTC on the other hand is inflationary, due to the (artificial) cap of 21 Million BTC. In any case, inflationary vs deflationary is a moot point. Too much of either side is bad. The important part is price consistency , whi…

Yeah, people don't hoard us dollars, they hoard T bills and other obfuscated forms of us dollar debt.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#158

Post by bdhiehihhd »

dnautics wrote: post #153
bduerst wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The Fed or CBRC may not be perfect with their policies, but at least they're beneficially aligned with the future and stability of their currency (rather than a group of rational self-interested actors).

"they're beneficially aligned with the future" how's that divide between the rich and poor going? The fed has been upwardly redistributing wealth especially dramatically for the last 40 years since when the Nixon closed the gold window. I suppose if you think creating a kleptocratic state is beneficial for the future, then your statement rings true.

It's amazing the amount shit people will write about government, either they are a shill or brain dead.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#159

Post by Frondo »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #152
Frondo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't. If anything, it would vastly concentrate power further in the hands of a few--except this time, those few would be the miners and core developers. Say "the people" wanted to vote to increase the pool to 25 million coins, instead of 21. That is a pretty basic form of political power to exercise, saying "we want to change this structure that affects our lives, let's vote on it". How would "the people" hold…

We don't disagree. If power moved from governments to a handful of developers "it would completely upend the political power structures." It is democratic is because people are voluntarily adopting BTC where alternatives exist - which is unprecedented in the history of money. They vote by acting.

Voting, in this context of political engagement, isn't just any ol' act of expressing a preference. "Vote with your dollars" is not voting, though you often hear people say this sort of thing, and I think this is why people now confuse voting with making decisions in general. You choose the green shirt, you don't "vote for green," when you dress yourself in the morning.

Voting is the act of expressing a preference in a framework of governance that lets people engage with the governing structures and policies, and these days we also take it to mean that each person gets a vote so long as they're a citizen--they don't need to be rich or even literate. That isn't built into Bitcoin anywhere. It's antidemocratic because there is no way for every single user to express a preference in its design or operation.

That doesn't seem to bother the bitcoin advocates I've talked with, either. The sense I get, and I realize this is not so charitable, is that they look at it as a way to be the guys in power in this new system, and aren't so keen to bake in some sort of voting because it'd just take that away again.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#160

Post by vacri »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #30

Back in 2009 when I was getting into bitcoin, it was widely described as a "stateless currency" and not just an alternative to Visa or credit cards. Having a background in economics, bitcoin looked to me like a truly revolutionary technology and if it was adopted en masse would change politics forever. The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. Whomever control…

> It's like if we created Artificial General Intelligence and it decided to just write movie reviews forever.

Bitcoin never had that potential. Regardless of it's theoretical capabilities, the general public would not have been able to use it effectively. It requires a computer, knowledge of digital security, the idea of 'backing up' your money and keeping that safe, and all-in-all, a new approach to handling money altogether (which also requires electronics on the user's part).

The average member of the public could handle all this, sure, but half of people are below average. Bitcoin is also more difficult to understand than cash; there's a lot more mental overhead. Alternatively you can let a financial institution handle your bitcoin for you, but then there's no real difference between btc and dollars - at this point, they're just numbers on a ledger.

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