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2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

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Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#151

Post by baghira »

nailer wrote: post #112
frik wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Azure is their cloud OS and runs on a special Windows server cluster in huge datacenters. (One can run Linux VMs on it, but that's just a byproduct) Azure and software as a service are their mid term future plans. Not for a reason Dave Cutler (73 years old!!), VMS and WinNT fame/chief architect has worked on Windows Azure and Hyper-V since 2008. He is undoubtly Microsoft's oldest and most important person - without h…

Everything you've written in your comment is true, but I don't think it responds to anything I've said: it just looks like you're trying to show off your knowledge of NT.

Both in the case of Office 365 and that of Azure they are selling you their cashcow (office and windows), only in a software as service fashion. Moreover, neither is opensource, unlike cloud offering based on Xen or kvm, which are (at least to some extent). I fail to see how Sun fares worse in this comparison, if this was your point.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#152

Post by yuhong »

Silhouette wrote: post #150
at-fates-hands wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out It seems to me MS is simply going to the "let us take care of your system, we know what's best for you" approach - which is not only insulting, but highly suspect. When you make using an OS compulsory on several fronts (many of which I can't control), I…

In the case of updates, I wouldn't mind so much if they had them on-by-default for security and stability updates, because that will usually be the best choice for users who don't know any better. However, preventing power users and small businesses from controlling their own systems even if they want to is quite a different thing, and of course it makes a difference only if Microsoft want you to have something that…

Yea, they have offered at least the option to enable auto updates during OOBE since XP SP2. I agree that Win10 style forced updates has its own issues, especially when they include even third party driver updates in there (to name just one of them). I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#153

Post by Silhouette »

yuhong wrote: post #152
Silhouette wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of updates, I wouldn't mind so much if they had them on-by-default for security and stability updates, because that will usually be the best choice for users who don't know any better. However, preventing power users and small businesses from controlling their own systems even if they want to is quite a different thing, and of course it makes a difference only if Microsoft want you to have something that…

Yea, they have offered at least the option to enable auto updates during OOBE since XP SP2. I agree that Win10 style forced updates has its own issues, especially when they include even third party driver updates in there (to name just one of them). I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision.

I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision.

I've no doubt you're right. Unfortunately, if there is one thing in computing that really shouldn't be some sort of super-connected, ever-changing, as-a-service rubbish, it's the basic OS your whole machine runs on. This direction was inevitable the moment they appointed Nadella CEO, but I've always maintained it was another case of Microsoft trying to jump on the bandwagon long after other big players and then misjudging when it did.

I suspect a lot of people are going to watch with something of an open mind until the year after launch when the deadline for a free update to Win10 expires, and then there are probably going to be some hard questions asked about adoption levels and revenue streams and why so many businesses and home users are still on 7/8, and then Nadella is going to decide to spend more time with his family and be replaced by someone who pushes Microsoft firmly back towards its traditional and probably much more successful roots in 2-3 years before Win7 support runs out and forces some really serious questions to be asked by Microsoft's core customer base.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#154

Post by yuhong »

Silhouette wrote: post #153
yuhong wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, they have offered at least the option to enable auto updates during OOBE since XP SP2. I agree that Win10 style forced updates has its own issues, especially when they include even third party driver updates in there (to name just one of them). I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision.

I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision. I've no doubt you're right. Unfortunately, if there is one thing in computing that really shouldn't be some sort of super-connected, ever-changing, as-a-service rubbish, it's the basic OS your whole machine runs on. This direction was inevitable the moment they appointed Nadella CEO, but I've always maintained it was another case of Microsoft trying to jump on…

I think Terry is more to blame. Of course, there is also the problem of making money on Windows too, especially as most of the Windows sales are OEM. I am thinking of breaking up Microsoft's Windows division into a non-profit foundation, funded by hardware vendors like Dell and Intel with no per system licensing fees required anymore for example. Of course, it would be complex and have to be planned carefully.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#155

Post by Silhouette »

geofft wrote: post #118
lstamour wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically the bit about it not being sold to small business is not true. You can get LTSB through Software Assurance through Windows Intune licensing on a per-user basis through Microsoft Online Services for companies of 5-250 people. And you don't need LTSB or Enterprise/Education SKUs to turn them off, you just get more convenient toggles there. Ultimately you're responsible for what services run on your computer…

Because you have external requirements (the software you need to run only supports Windows, there aren't any outsourced IT providers in your area that know how to manage any other OSes, regulators will be confused, etc.) that demand you run the OS regardless of whether you trust it. Or because you don't trust any of the other options either, which is an entirely reasonable stance.

I wish people would stop downvoting posts that make reasonable points in a civilised way. The parent post gave two perfectly sensible and polite answers to the question that was asked, even if not everyone might agree with them.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#156

Post by Silhouette »

yuhong wrote: post #154
Silhouette wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is part of the "Windows as a service" vision. I've no doubt you're right. Unfortunately, if there is one thing in computing that really shouldn't be some sort of super-connected, ever-changing, as-a-service rubbish, it's the basic OS your whole machine runs on. This direction was inevitable the moment they appointed Nadella CEO, but I've always maintained it was another case of Microsoft trying to jump on…

I think Terry is more to blame. Of course, there is also the problem of making money on Windows too, especially as most of the Windows sales are OEM. I am thinking of breaking up Microsoft's Windows division into a non-profit foundation, funded by hardware vendors like Dell and Intel with no per system licensing fees required anymore for example. Of course, it would be complex and have to be planned carefully.

I think Terry is more to blame.

Perhaps, but I think if you're the CEO and the flagship product most associated with your business goes to hell, the buck stops with you.

Ironically, someone like Terry might be best placed to clean up the mess, as a shift back towards in-house but centralised technologies like Exchange (a team he ran for a long time) could be Microsoft's best strategy for competing both technically and in PR with the online-everything brigade.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#157

Post by craigvn »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #143
gtirloni wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they will unintentionally leak your confidential personal data How?

You're a defendant in a trial against the government. You open an Explorer window that tries to render a preview for a PDF document titled "Doug Malone's Testimony." The PDF is busted and the preview renderer errors out, posting the error message with the file name automatically to Microsoft. The government subpoenas your Microsoft account, trolls the error reports and learns your legal strategy. It didn't matter if…

If the government were after info like this I doubt they would spend too much time trolling through crash logs, why not just subpoena your email or phone logs.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#158

Post by Silhouette »

raesene9 wrote: post #95
frik wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Not true at all! It's impossible, without a hardware firewall. Their kernel network driver whitelists several microsoft domains and IP address ranges. What's worse Microsoft back-ported that phone-home crap and ships them as updates to Windows 7 and 8.x (of course the coincidentally stopped writting descriptions for their Windows updates). Not even mentio…

Why do you think ordinary users should try to disable all the cloud based features of their OS? Surely a lot of the features they want (e.g. Google Now, Siri, Cortana) are based on the OS provider knowing about the users and having information about them. If your threat model is that the OS provider is hostile, no amount of changing of settings will protect you from their actions...

Why do you think ordinary users should try to disable all the cloud based features of their OS? Surely a lot of the features they want (e.g. Google Now, Siri, Cortana)

The thing is, almost every piece of research I've seen from independent sources suggests that most users don't really want or care about these digital personal assistant gimmicks. Once you got past the hype, this was a point a few different articles made around the time Win11/Cortana became available.

That certainly seems more credible to me than the story the OS vendors' marketing teams would like us to believe. After all, I know plenty of people who use Android and iOS devices, but in my entire life I don't think I have heard the words "OK Google" spoken non-ironically outside of a tech presentation, and I have also literally never seen (heard?) anyone using Siri other than to show how badly it got something wrong and laugh at it. I mean, anecdotes and data and all that, but if almost everyone I know has a smartphone and literally no-one I know seems to be using these features that we're told users want, that's an astonishingly unrepresentative sample.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#159

Post by slowmovintarget »

ifdefdebug wrote: post #43
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?

Considering that Win10 has been shown to run an always-on key-logger that reports in to Microsoft every 5 minutes, I think it's safe to call this especially bad.

Everything you type, in every application you run, all the time. You can't block this "telemetry" with Windows either. Microsoft has hard coded the DNS entries to bypass HOSTS file checking.

Also voice and camera records get sent to Microsoft.

None of this is contingent upon having or logging in to your Microsoft account. You don't even have to be using Microsoft features like Cortana or Bing. Microsoft has made the business decision that if you are running their OS, you are using their computer, not yours. They seem to be right that the majority are willing to hand over the keys for a "superior user experience".

The only way to prevent 10 from phoning home is either to disconnect it from the Internet, or connect through a dedicated firewall machine which blocks the collection endpoints. Win 10 will still be running that key logger in the background, though. It's built in.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#160

Post by bashinator »

Silhouette wrote: post #91
frik wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All can be turned off in Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch) - it's very expensive and not sold to consumer nor small business at all. But think about your doctor, your lawyer, etc. many smaller business, cheaper Windows 10 editon (non LTSB) they will unintentionally leak your confidential personal data. You say such PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Sca…

You say [doctors', lawyers' and many smaller businesses'] PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Scary. And almost certainly very illegal in a lot of places. Not only do you have whatever routine data protection rules apply, but in cases like medical data or legally privileged information there are higher standards required in many jurisdictions as well.

I work for a company that has to maintain HIPAA compliance, and we're all utterly horrified by Win10.
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