E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches • Hacker News Board

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#151

Post by w0utert » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 10:04 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #62

kbenson wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing that all of the designs have in common is poor performance and piss-poor fuel economy. At what point does it become economical to just run gasoline instead of diesel then (that is, manufacturers selling gasoline models)? If we are talking about diesel still being economical instead of gasoline, but just not as economical as when it was allowed to be more polluting, I'm not sure I can muster much sympathy…

> At what point does it become economical to just run gasoline instead of diesel then (that is, manufacturers selling gasoline models)? If we are talking about diesel still being economical instead of gasoline, but just not as economical as when it was allowed to be more polluting, I'm not sure I can muster much sympathy (but I'm fairly uneducated on the subject, so it may just a matter of not knowing enough). People…

>> People run diesels due to durability. They run at lower RPM than similarly designed gas engines, and last longer between rebuilds.

Reliability is one of these stubborn diesel myths that refuses to die. The lifespan of modern gasonline engines -when driven normally- is several multiples of what the average owner will drive the car for before it is replaced. You can easily put 300K kilometers on a gasoline engine before it needs a 'rebuild' (which typically involves not much more than changing the piston rings and rod bearings). Around 150K you may need a mild cylinder head revision (valve seals, valve seats, tappets) if you torture the engine enough. You won't have to break the bank for either of those. I don't know a single person except myself (driving a 25 year old car with a high-performance engine) who ever needed an engine rebuild.

Meanwhile, regular servicing for diesel engines is guaranteed to be more expensive compared to a gasoline engine, so in the long run you will not save any money on maintenance unless you drive your car without any care for reliability.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#152

Post by trhway » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 10:06 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #27

bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

you're making pretty much the same argument that GM did with electric cars some years ago.

>When the EPA makes rules that result in dangerous and/or non-functional product designs, I think it's time to back off just a bit until the technology has come closer to being able to reasonably achieve the regulated cleanliness levels. It's completely insane to make a truck that will force you to slow to 40mph while you're driving it, or to make a tractor that will force a farmer to take an unplanned break in the middle of the day (remember -- farmers work all day long, and daylight is a limited, precious commodity to them).

it is not EPA at fault here, it is truck and car manufacturers who need to get off their a&& and start manufacturing good products. History shows that only tightening of regulation can make them do it. Without tightening of regulations, the manufacturers will be mining the same technology/product again and again...

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#153

Post by swah » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 11:17 AM UTC

monkbroc wrote: post #85

Background: I used to be an automotive software engineer. I speak for myself only here. Whenever the topic of automotive software comes up on HN there are comments alongs the lines of "global variables bad", but not much construtive feedback. I want to explain some of the tradeoffs that lead to the architecture used in automotive software to get a better discussion going with HN readers about that architecture. tl;dr…

I'm working with embedded on a similar industry, and also really enjoy web dev. I don't like the tools and edit-compile-cycle when working with small microcontrollers...

May I ask why you left the industry?

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#154

Post by devit » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 11:22 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #27

bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

I wonder if it would be even remotely feasible to have an electric tractor for farming use that is powered by a power line attached to a tall pole on the tractor (with a winding/unwinding mechanism as the tractor moves).

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#155

Post by monkbroc » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 11:47 AM UTC

swah wrote: post #153

monkbroc wrote: post #85

Background: I used to be an automotive software engineer. I speak for myself only here. Whenever the topic of automotive software comes up on HN there are comments alongs the lines of "global variables bad", but not much construtive feedback. I want to explain some of the tradeoffs that lead to the architecture used in automotive software to get a better discussion going with HN readers about that architecture. tl;dr…

I'm working with embedded on a similar industry, and also really enjoy web dev. I don't like the tools and edit-compile-cycle when working with small microcontrollers... May I ask why you left the industry?

The "closed by default" attitude drove me nuts. Teams develop tools to improve their work and refuse to share the source code, even internally, even when there is a business reason (I'll improve the tool for you and me). Forget about cross-company collaboration on open source like you see in web dev.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#156

Post by tyho » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 12:07 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #148

Pot, meet kettle: http://junkscience.com/2012/10/new-documents-prove-falsifica... They were experimenting on human subjects without informed consent and using the data to overstate results that favored the regulations they wanted to impose. These regulations set the particulate limits diesel powered vehicles must meet.

Page 5 of the report: "The subject provided informed consent"

The real problem is drawing any conclusion from a sample size of 1.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#157

Post by acveilleux » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 4:42 PM UTC

bsimpson wrote: post #99

monkbroc wrote: post #85

Background: I used to be an automotive software engineer. I speak for myself only here. Whenever the topic of automotive software comes up on HN there are comments alongs the lines of "global variables bad", but not much construtive feedback. I want to explain some of the tradeoffs that lead to the architecture used in automotive software to get a better discussion going with HN readers about that architecture. tl;dr…

I'm not an embedded developer, so I don't have much value to add re: architecture; however, this caught my eye: > The microprocessor has to run for 10+ years in a wide range of temperatures and be dirt cheap, so you end up with specs like 180 MHz, 4 MB of flash and 128 KB of RAM. If I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars for a car, how come they're using the cheapest possible components? If tinkerers can ship the Ra…

There's a few things at play here.

Economy of scales is huge of course. A lot of the parts are actually shared between many different cars at different price points. There can be on the order of 50+ micro-controller in that car. Do you want to pay 10$ extra for each of them just because they have cooler specs?

The various parts are designed at various times so that car might have controllers for the anti-lock braking system that were designed 5 years ago.

Hard real-time applications (brakes, ECU, etc.) don't magically need more gigahertz, that engine with direct injection only needs to calculate fuel volume maybe 20000 times per seconds (once per cylinder per 2 rpm) and that would probably be a ridiculous upper bound.

In-car navigation and entertainment packages are completely separate from the hardware actually controlling the car.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#158

Post by alkonaut » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #96

I'm conflicted. What do people think about the ethics of buying (non-diesel) Volkswagen cars at this point? Obviously new cars pad VW's profits and reward bad behavior. But what about used ones? Seems like prices will be plummeting. And if you like the cars, seems like a great time to buy.

Was looking at a new diesel but will maybe go for the GTE hybrid instead. The Passat GTE the only full size hybrid wagon that I know of(?) and it's very reasonably priced at around $5-10k over the non-hybrid.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#159

Post by mzs » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

yuhong wrote: post #59

mzs wrote: post #14

the release itself: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/bd4379a92ceceeac852... As alleged in the NOV, VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module of these vehicles that senses when the vehicle is being tested for compliance with EPA emissions standards. When the vehicle senses that it is undergoing a federal emissions test procedure, it operates in a low NOx “temperature conditioning”…

Notice the different 3.0 litre engine affected.

Yes and this new NOV as well as the excerpt I highlighted from yesterday applies to those engines. Essentially EPA has evidence of a defeat device on the 3L now too.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#160

Post by CydeWeys » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 1:16 AM UTC

i38608 wrote: post #143

CydeWeys wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EPA made standards that are impossible to meet using any available technology without causing some or all of the problems I mentioned. I think you're being hyperbolic here in saying that the standards are impossible to meet. What about urea injection? That works pretty well, right? But even ignoring that, it's not like there's some god-given right to run diesel engines. Either the emissions standards are reason…

I don't think replacing "inferior technology" with inferior technology is a good idea.

I don't follow. What "inferior technology" (in scare quotes) is being replaced by what actually inferior technology? Are you really trying to claim that gasoline engines are inferior to diesel engines for passenger vehicles?