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The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

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Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#151

Post by lentil_soup »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #147
lentil_soup wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the line is on whether it's a personal/private matter and when it's not. The NSA is a government agency, so what it does is in the public interest. A guy planning to bomb something is also by definition affecting the public so exposing that is also in the public interest. This hack, the fappening and similar are completely personal and private so they are of no concern to anyone but the people involved in it.

Agree, though one could argue that what AM is doing is an explicit attempt to damage the basic building block of society, i.e. family. So this becomes somewhat a matter of public interest then.

Haha, well that's stretching the argument a bit, but for the sake of conversation I would then ask for proof that family is indeed the "basic building block of society" and that what MA is doing is actually damaging it to an extent that it can be considered a public safety issue.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#152

Post by tremon »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #13
tptacek wrote: post #2

The response to this this on Twitter would be beyond fucked- up if it weren't so completely predictable. People are posting direct links to the dump, screenshots of lists of emails, and statistics for classes of domains. The general reaction to the availability of the dump is reasonably characterized as "glee". But no matter what you think about Ashley Madison --- and I think A.M. is so comically scummy that I had tr…

This is pretty close to the same as Donald Sterling's opinion on black people, and outed gay Republicans who voted against gay equality. Even if the outing was unethical, you can't un-pull the trigger on this being public knowledge, and people become responsible for their own shitty behavior that previously was concealed. Sucks to be them. And marital infidelity is unethical even if it isn't illegal. It's pretty FUCK…

> And marital infidelity is unethical even if it isn't illegal

So, even ignoring that high horse you're on: in your not so humble opinion, are all registrants on ALM guilty of marital infidelity? That's assuming guilt by association, and flies directly in the face of your own constitution.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#153

Post by camillomiller »

zamalek wrote: post #123
camillomiller wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elevation of monogamy and closed relationships as the God-given natural status of a couple is the source of too many problems. Same for not living our own sexuality in the open. By acting like this (that is: like you are supposed to) you are constantly prone to blackmail. If you happen to have a wife that is entitled in her social-induced belief that even thinking about other women is good ground for the terminat…

> God-given natural status The "God reasoning" isn't the only reasoning. Just like polygamy is a choice, so is monogamy. It's a sexual choice. What is wrong is that people can't be open about that choice. People should be able to be open and honest about being polygamous or monogamous with their partner - yes, that might sometimes result in the relationship ending; but there's a good chance where there is a disagreem…

It's not really a choice. It's "the way things are supposed to be". The argument is not unrelated though, because it's relative the nature of our society. And that nature is what makes this hack so juicy to people that would have otherwise have ignored that as they ignored many other data leaks in the past. Freedom of choice is important, but you're not really free to choose polygamy when education and morals are still mostly driven by archaic religious beliefs.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#154

Post by TeMPOraL »

dagw wrote: post #149
TeMPOraL wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, though one could argue that what AM is doing is an explicit attempt to damage the basic building block of society, i.e. family. So this becomes somewhat a matter of public interest then.

one could argue that what AM is doing is an explicit attempt to damage the basic building block of society Sure, but one could also argue the same about per-marital sex, divorce and homosexuals.

Marriages are not just moral issues, they're also contracts between people themselves and between the couples and the government. They come with privileges and tax breaks and social status, and all of it is built upon assumption that marriages are mostly permanent. AM is explicitly attempting to attack that.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#155

Post by DanielBMarkham »

I've thought some about this, as it looks like this kind of travesty is going to continue to happen online. Where are my personal boundaries over what is acceptable or unacceptable?

It's an uncomfortable exploration. I've decided that if I am driving by a car accident -- perhaps a drunk driver careened into a bus -- I will slow down and take a good gawk. There's something in human nature that drives that impulse. I wish the people involved no harm, and I do not take any pleasure in their suffering.

I will not, however, stop the car and rifle through their belongings. People who have been victims of a crime -- even bad people -- do not deserve for me to abuse them further, or take pleasure in their suffering. They certainly don't deserve to be re-victimized.

But I'm 50, not 15. And I've already learned not to let strong emotions about how good or bad something is get in the the way of the larger moral debate.

How to say this best? The internet is a cesspool. It's very difficult to visit without either getting dirty or smelling bad.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#156

Post by mtgx »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #147
lentil_soup wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the line is on whether it's a personal/private matter and when it's not. The NSA is a government agency, so what it does is in the public interest. A guy planning to bomb something is also by definition affecting the public so exposing that is also in the public interest. This hack, the fappening and similar are completely personal and private so they are of no concern to anyone but the people involved in it.

Agree, though one could argue that what AM is doing is an explicit attempt to damage the basic building block of society, i.e. family. So this becomes somewhat a matter of public interest then.

> Agree, though one could argue that what AM is doing is an explicit attempt to damage the basic building block of society, i.e. family

Eh. So you think the people exposing husbands and wives cheating on each other are the ones breaking families, not the ones actually cheating?

Don't shoot the messenger, comes to mind (okay, maybe imprison the messenger if he obtained the data in an illegal way, but I don't think he should be imprisoned or worse for "breaking families", when he wasn't the one committing the act that ends up breaking the family apart).

Isn't that kind of how private eyes work, too? Should they be punished for "breaking families"?

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#157

Post by anentropic »

yummybear wrote: post #120
tptacek wrote: post #2

The response to this this on Twitter would be beyond fucked- up if it weren't so completely predictable. People are posting direct links to the dump, screenshots of lists of emails, and statistics for classes of domains. The general reaction to the availability of the dump is reasonably characterized as "glee". But no matter what you think about Ashley Madison --- and I think A.M. is so comically scummy that I had tr…

Most people in here (I assume) think Snowden's leaks were ethic, though illegal. The reaction to The Fappening was likewise equal parts glee and disgust. Almost nobody would blink an eye at revealing a doxxing dump from a terrorist sympathizer or CP forum. Ethics are a subjective thing, and lines are hard to place.

it helps if you think about it

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#158

Post by varjag »

lentil_soup wrote: post #140
yummybear wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in here (I assume) think Snowden's leaks were ethic, though illegal. The reaction to The Fappening was likewise equal parts glee and disgust. Almost nobody would blink an eye at revealing a doxxing dump from a terrorist sympathizer or CP forum. Ethics are a subjective thing, and lines are hard to place.

I think the line is on whether it's a personal/private matter and when it's not. The NSA is a government agency, so what it does is in the public interest. A guy planning to bomb something is also by definition affecting the public so exposing that is also in the public interest. This hack, the fappening and similar are completely personal and private so they are of no concern to anyone but the people involved in it.

Infidelity is not a private matter however: the person being cheated on has the right to know. For a million cheaters, there's a million their SOs, often living miserable lives but denied an informed choice about their future and kept at non-negligible health risk.

It stops being a private matter when it trespasses into other people's life.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#159

Post by tremon »

geofft wrote: post #66
ougachooga wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for that answer, which helped me see some larger issues at play. Edit: although I also disagree that discussions of ethics and morality are off-topic for HN.

To be clear, I think discussions of ethics and morality in company purposes are (or at least, ought to be) very much on topic for the site as a whole. I just think that discussing the morality of this particular business on this particular comment thread is likely to risk being off-topic, because it's too easy to read it as "Yeah, but they deserved it," and maybe the company did but the story is primarily about the u…

"It is, IMO, clearly irresponsible and reprehensible to go around encouraging people to break their marriage vows and then not take world-class care of the database"

It's reprehensible for any third party to go around encouraging people to break any sort of vows between any two people, and it's irresponsible for any online site with a large userbase to not take world-class care of their database. Why should the two propositions be connected?

To me, it's not more irresponsible because of the nature of the site, and it's not suddenly more reprehensible because they got hacked. In addition, I would say that leaking the database is more reprehensible than the site itself ever was.

Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked

#160

Post by antillean »

brerlapn wrote: post #113
WillPostForFood wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're getting downvoted because your judgment of people on AM assumes facts not in evidence (i.e., that users of AM are there to cheat on their unknowing spouses This is all text from the homepage of Ashley Madison: "Ashley Madison is the world's leading married dating service for discreet encounters" Their tagline, a registered trademark is, "Life is short. Have an affair.®" "Ashley Madison is the most famous name…

I've been known to drink Budweiser. Does that mean that I believe that women will suddenly find me sexy and the Swedish bikini team will appear as I pop off the bottlecap to lavish me with scantily-clad attention? You are conflating the marketing copy of the company with the intentions and motivations of the users. Just because something confirms your most cynical expectations doesn't make it true. Ashley Madison has…

Uh, what? How is membership in a website that is known, markets itself, and is designed as a cheating website not evidence of the intentions and motivations of its members? Of course membership in Ashley Madison isn't irrefutable proof that a person is looking for an affair. But how is it also not good reason to believe that he/she is?
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