What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea • Hacker News Board

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#141

Post by tellthetruth » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:19 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #132

qiqing wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands). Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand. That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this…

Yeah we aren't perfect. But after we did it no one else should (except our allies) and we are gonna keep it.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#142

Post by tellthetruth » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #67

smcl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My word the southern reaches of the Chinese claim are extremely grabby! Is this just similar to haggling in a bazaar for an item listed at $30, which you personally value at $20 so you open with a lowballed offer of $10?

You're being generous. China is annexing territory that belongs to Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. The same thing that Russia is doing in Ukraine. It's an act of war, the issue is that the world is very afraid of China (both militarily and economically).

Get some education unadventured! The territory doesn't belong to Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#143

Post by qiqing » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #132

qiqing wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands). Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand. That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this…

That actually seems like a pretty good strategy, TBH. Not saying this in an inflammatory way, as this seems applicable to a lot of other areas.

Execute massive land grab first to get strategic high ground, and then bitflip your previous moves to be wrong for anyone else to do. That makes sure that anyone else trying to catch up to you is unable to do so. Boom. Barriers to entry. Done.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#144

Post by noir_lord » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:25 PM UTC

tellthetruth wrote: post #141

noir_lord wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands). Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand. That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this…

Yeah we aren't perfect. But after we did it no one else should (except our allies) and we are gonna keep it.

In fairness how far back do we apply this, should the Italians be censored for what the Romans did in the North of England, or the Mongols for what they did to most of Europe or the Spanish for what they did in South America or what we (the British) did to...well basically everybody.

If you hold that no past behaviour is considered expired then pretty much every country on the planet or the people who live there before it was that country is responsible for something.

African tribes have warred for millenia, European tribes have warred for millenia, South America, Middle East, Far East pretty much everyone has at some point beaten up their neighbours and not so near neighbours.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#145

Post by noir_lord » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

qiqing wrote: post #143

noir_lord wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands). Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand. That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this…

That actually seems like a pretty good strategy, TBH. Not saying this in an inflammatory way, as this seems applicable to a lot of other areas. Execute massive land grab first to get strategic high ground, and then bitflip your previous moves to be wrong for anyone else to do. That makes sure that anyone else trying to catch up to you is unable to do so. Boom. Barriers to entry. Done.

The British empire built itself on the backs of foreigners (everything up to and including slavery) and in many way shaped the world the way it is now.

However the world has moved on, that it moved on at a time when the West was dominant (for now) wasn't planned it was just how it was.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#146

Post by vondur » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

curiousjorge wrote: post #77

The question is, is President Xi willing to risk military conflict to enforce whatever new lines he draws on the map? I don't think he is. As we saw the air zone China drew that overlapped Korea, Japan and Taiwan, it was promptly ignored by all countries and when the US stealth bombers were flying China was silent . An actual combat that results in Chinese loss would be detrimental to the continuity of Xi's party and…

It's kind of puzzling regarding the Chinese plans for the South China Sea. They are antagonizing many of their neighbors there that are normally friendly or neutral to them in most respects. If China persists in making these territorial claims in the South China Sea, how will they enforce it? They don't have any safe harbors in the area for their Navy to go to in case of a war, while the US has bases and allies throughout the region. As far as I can tell, the Chinese government usually acts family pragmatic with regards to it's foreign policy, though I'll admit that Xi does seem to be a different type of leader than their previous premiers.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#147

Post by qiqing » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #133

timiblossom wrote: post #33

The building to convert reef to island is one of the first steps to claim the entire Southeast-Asia sea by China. It will then have the self-declared ownership right to block all sea/air traffics through this region and bully other neighboring countries. Besides having a huge oil/gas reserve and fishes, in term of economic impact, this sea is as important as or more than Panama Canal or Suez Canal. A country with the…

Can I call horseshit on HN again? The Strait of Malacca (which is close by) would be on par with the Panama Canal or Suez. The South China Sea is not a transit point for goods in the same manner, and is not as important. When you look at China's claims in comparison with everyone else's claims, (especially Vietnam's), it does not look that outlandish, and everyone in the region effectively wants to be able to say "th…

This. Thank you for being a voice of reason. Historical context is so important here, especially the lessons China learned the hard way. Like just what the U.S., U.K., France, and other countries can do to you if you show weakness.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#148

Post by qiqing » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

tellthetruth wrote: post #141

noir_lord wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands). Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand. That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this…

Yeah we aren't perfect. But after we did it no one else should (except our allies) and we are gonna keep it.

Yeah, we could at least give Guam residents the right to vote. Them not having that right has a lot to do with racist legislators in a previous era feeling like votes by "alien races" (e.g., Asians) would be detrimental.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#149

Post by Xixi » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

honest_joe wrote: post #116

Xixi wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quote you: "I predict Japan will try to push forward and claim the disputed islands with the support of uncle Sam." Which islands were you thinking about? Japan has three notable territorial conflicts: the Kuril islands with Russia (controlled by Russia), the Senkaku islands with China (controlled by Japan) and the Takeshima islands (controlled by Korea). Of these three conflicts the ones with Korea and Russia are…

They do not really control the senkaku islands. At least not from chinese POV :P And yes Dokdo (Takeshima in Japan) is a big thing in Korea.

Controlling is not really a matter of point of view. It's a matter of patrolling, and sending boats away if they are not allowed in the area, etc. Japan inherited this control from the US, and China is perfectly allowed to dispute ownership of the islands. But claiming that Japan is not -at present- controlling the islands is simply not correct.

The Liancourt Rocks case is interesting, because it is so asymmetric: all the Korean people I know feel so strongly about it, but none of the Japanese people I know either know or care about it. If I were in Japan I would try to give up all claims on Dokdo as part of a wider friendship treaty with Korea, and try to prop up the relations between the two countries. But Japanese politicians are questionable at best, and Korean politicians seem to enjoy Japan bashing, so I doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future...

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#150

Post by ctdonath » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

brador wrote: post #20

slayed0 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just buy a dredger and make one

Seriously, how much would it cost per square foot to build an island?

More a matter of cost per cubic foot.

Have to find someplace where the seafloor is close to the surface, then dump enough volume of dirt on it to reach a viable altitude.