Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#141

Post by danieltillett » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #113

roymurdock wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you consider "monopoly profits?" As of the 2013 leak, Uber was grossing $1bn in revenue [1]. Uber takes a 20% cut from each transaction, and has an extremely lean cost structure - drivers pay for gas, insurance, amortize vehicles, don't get any benefits, etc. Even if we assume costs to be 10% of revenue (which they aren't), Uber still would have earned a gross profit of $100m in 2013. Judging by Uber's curren…

But if they face a new entrant they can easily just lower prices and suffocate them.

This is totally illegal. As I mentioned before this might be their model, but I hope not.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#142

Post by danieltillett » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:18 AM UTC

roymurdock wrote: post #102

danieltillett wrote: post #65

The thing about Uber I don’t understand is how they are going to defend their monopoly once they acquire it. Assuming they eventually win all the legal battles and drive all other taxi and taxi-like services out of business then how are they going to stop anyone else from entering their market? Each transport market is effectively isolated (you don’t hail a driver from SF to get around NYC). This means any new entran…

What do you consider "monopoly profits?" As of the 2013 leak, Uber was grossing $1bn in revenue [1]. Uber takes a 20% cut from each transaction, and has an extremely lean cost structure - drivers pay for gas, insurance, amortize vehicles, don't get any benefits, etc. Even if we assume costs to be 10% of revenue (which they aren't), Uber still would have earned a gross profit of $100m in 2013. Judging by Uber's curren…

>What do you consider "monopoly profits?" As of the 2013 leak, Uber was grossing $1bn in revenue [1]. Uber takes a 20% cut from each transaction, and has an extremely lean cost structure - drivers pay for gas, insurance, amortize vehicles, don't get any benefits, etc. Even if we assume costs to be 10% of revenue (which they aren't), Uber still would have earned a gross profit of $100m in 2013. Judging by Uber's current $50bn valuation, their revenues have grown anywhere from 3x-5x over the past 2 years

Assuming all this is correct (leaks sometimes are not) this does not solve the competition problem. The more money they make in a market the more attractive it comes for someone else to enter that market.

>You are right that there are low barriers to entry in this market - it's why most drivers do both Uber and Lyft. The underlying technology is the same, and the capital (drivers) is not proprietary and can be shared between different companies. However, if Uber were to stipulate that drivers sign an employment contract, and then enforce that they were not working for the competition, this would raise the barriers to entry for competitors. Likewise, there isn't much differentiation in the taxi market. It's nice if a driver comes with water and a nice-smelling car, but ultimately it's not a deal breaker.

The problem is the parts of their business that are unique have low barriers to entry, while the other parts are inherently inefficient (having each driver pay all the capital and running costs is more expensive than centralising). Sure the current taxi industry was ripe for innovation, but once that genie is out of the bottle there is nothing stopping someone else out ubering Uber. How does Uber stop this happening?

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#143

Post by HappyTypist » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:20 AM UTC

bko wrote: post #39

Whatever you think about Uber, you have to realize that de Blasio's actions are not about congestion or the public's interest. Let's not forget his original plan to have the city pre-approve upgrades to ride-hailing apps: > The mayor’s plan to require Uber Technologies Inc., Lyft Inc. and other ride-hailing services to get city approval for upgrades to the user interface on smartphone apps -- and to pony up $1,000 ea…

This is very similar to BitLicense which is also born in new York. It's unfortunate that they are heavily against permissionless innovation which had created $4 and $40 billion markets.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#144

Post by Karunamon » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:21 AM UTC

backtoyoujim wrote: post #49

Does anyone on HN "work" for either of Uber or Lyft? There seems to be a lot "uber workers this" and "lyft workers that" without much substance.

I drive for Uber in my spare time as of a few weeks ago - they just started serving Cheyenne for Frontier Days (and I'm hoping they keep the service on after that, though I'm not sure the demand is gonna be there)

(That is, for the precisely one ride I've gotten.. Something in the backend appears broken and nobody can request rides even though I'm online, and support hasn't been helpful on this >_Can answer any questions you have, but I doubt there's going to be a lot to answer. Signing up as a driver and doing what you gotta do is a pretty straightforward process.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#145

Post by kazinator » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:23 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #144

backtoyoujim wrote: post #49

Does anyone on HN "work" for either of Uber or Lyft? There seems to be a lot "uber workers this" and "lyft workers that" without much substance.

I drive for Uber in my spare time as of a few weeks ago - they just started serving Cheyenne for Frontier Days (and I'm hoping they keep the service on after that, though I'm not sure the demand is gonna be there) (That is, for the precisely one ride I've gotten.. Something in the backend appears broken and nobody can request rides even though I'm online, and support hasn't been helpful on this >_ Can answer any ques…

Spare time, what? Aren't you guys ruled to be employees in some jurisdiction, which makes it employment? :)

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#146

Post by morgante » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:23 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #65

The thing about Uber I don’t understand is how they are going to defend their monopoly once they acquire it. Assuming they eventually win all the legal battles and drive all other taxi and taxi-like services out of business then how are they going to stop anyone else from entering their market? Each transport market is effectively isolated (you don’t hail a driver from SF to get around NYC). This means any new entran…

I think you're significantly downplaying the network effects inherent in Uber's model. Yes, those network effects might be localized (each city is its own network), but they're still incredibly strong. Drivers want to be where the riders are and riders want to be where the drivers and other riders are. (As a rider, I want there to be a healthy rider pool so I can do sharing.)

Additionally, Uber doesn't have to jack up prices (with "monopoly pricing") to earn a healthy profit. In its mature markets, it's already quite profitable.

Given that, where do you think there is an opening? If it's so easy to compete with Uber on a local level, why isn't Lyft beating it in any single market (despite $1b raised)?

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#147

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:27 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #131

jrcii wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a seasoned New Yorker I've learned that the best response to "where to?" is to silently get in the cab.

Good pointer, but remember, as a general rule: The more savvy you have to be to avoid getting scammed, the more corrupt the system is.

That's hardly the system at work. "The system" attempts to address this problem. Your issue is with the people driving the cabs, not regulation.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#148

Post by HappyTypist » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:28 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #61

snitko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people choose to use them and pay them money. But no, we must protect those willing customers from the dangers of doing business freely and having an actuall choice, instead of paying extra to a violent monopoly of taxi drivers who'd rather crash other's cars than compete honestly.

Just because some people are willing to pay for something, doesn't mean it's right. People in general are very happy to pay for things that have huge externalities not directly affecting them.

What externalities for uber are you referring to?

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#149

Post by Tomte » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

snitko wrote: post #16

fx85ms wrote: post #5

The title would be better if it were "Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio's plan to block them from doing business". I think we really need to fight the notion that Uber promotes "ride sharing", whatever that even means now. Uber has shown that its service is anything but sharing - it is plain old taxi with a spiffy app and no labour protection, and where their "employees" are merely treated as another replaceable contr…

And yet people choose to use them and pay them money. But no, we must protect those willing customers from the dangers of doing business freely and having an actuall choice, instead of paying extra to a violent monopoly of taxi drivers who'd rather crash other's cars than compete honestly.

You are intentionally leaving out the part where many of the people in danger don't have a choice, because they have no connection with Uber, other than the inconvenient fact that they were counterparts in a traffic accident.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#150

Post by tsax » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #87

I'm no fan of Uber and I can't stand its founder or his ridiculous smirk but... they played this well. Uber's got game when it comes to politics. If either political party ever learned demagoguery from Travis, I'd be scared. It helps them that their opponent isn't sympathetic at all. Non-zero medallion values, by definition, mean that there are too few cabs on the road (and in New York, there are). The Medallion Mafi…

My hunch is that if the company was different, it would lose. Like it or not, this is what's required to defeat our noble overlords a.k.a. the holy regulators and the munificent politicians.