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Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

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Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#141

Post by dllthomas »

bdcravens wrote: post #131
dllthomas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request." Pretty sure developer isn't the line for "very dangerous job".

I agree, but the feeling I was getting from joesmo was that law enforcement was just another job, with little risk.

Compared to many blue collar jobs, that's the case. By the numbers, it's about twice as dangerous as being a car mechanic and significantly less so than being a construction worker. Further, most deaths of police officers on duty aren't from violence.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#142

Post by nrser »

happyscrappy wrote: post #81
hga wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And law enforcement weren't "heroes" before 9/11??? Now, I'm probably older than you, old enough to have watched the first run of hagiographic Efrem Zimbalist, Jr. F.B.I. TV series that ran until 1974, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F.B.I._(TV_series) ), but I assure this is nothing new. E.g. I can remember more than a few debates I had with co-workers in the '90s on the War on Drugs, I said we could have that,…

Your definition of police state is an insult to people who have actually lived in one.

serious: which states are police states? did you / do you live in one?

i live in China and i do not miss the cops in the US.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#143

Post by jowiar »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #137
jowiar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Camden is plenty "typical enough" in terms of poverty-stricken, gang-filled neighborhoods. What might exist in Camden that doesn't exist elsewhere is that, at least as far as local government goes, Camden doesn't have the governing tensions that exist in other cities, with a rich "governing class" (read: white yuppies) doing all that they can to "protect themselves" from "the others". Like all cities, it gets thoroug…

Like all cities, it gets thoroughly screwed by the State I'm no expert on this, but I can think of important counterexamples, so I'm not sure this is true at all. Counterexample #1 - New York. It seems that this name is pretty much synonymous with the city plus a bit of surrounding area, and the upstate regions are completely forgotten. In particular, the areas that have to host NYC's water supply get particularly ho…

As a pretty heavy counterexample, compare public transit funding vs. highway funding pretty much anywhere in the US, or education funding (which screws both urban and rural, to the benefit of suburban). In terms of cities I've lived in/near, Philly, Pittsburgh, SF, Chicago, and Baltimore all get pretty thoroughly screwed by the state governments, which are all districted to minimize urban influence.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#144

Post by rayiner »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #137
jowiar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Camden is plenty "typical enough" in terms of poverty-stricken, gang-filled neighborhoods. What might exist in Camden that doesn't exist elsewhere is that, at least as far as local government goes, Camden doesn't have the governing tensions that exist in other cities, with a rich "governing class" (read: white yuppies) doing all that they can to "protect themselves" from "the others". Like all cities, it gets thoroug…

Like all cities, it gets thoroughly screwed by the State I'm no expert on this, but I can think of important counterexamples, so I'm not sure this is true at all. Counterexample #1 - New York. It seems that this name is pretty much synonymous with the city plus a bit of surrounding area, and the upstate regions are completely forgotten. In particular, the areas that have to host NYC's water supply get particularly ho…

NYC and its suburbs fork over about $12 billion a year more in taxes to the state than gets spent in that region on services. That's not including the massive urban/rural cross-subsidies built in to everything from electricity to water to telecommunications.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#145

Post by thesteamboat »

Crito wrote: post #45
3pt14159 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

De-escalation is more effective than the slight tactical advantage.

Has it really come to vilifying a haircut ? The haircut is not to blame for anything here, it is all the people who may happen to wear it. Short hair is pragmatic, but more importantly, it is a personal preference. Nobody should be criticized for wearing short hair. Doing that makes you no better than people who talk about "long-haired hippies" disparagingly.

Off topic, but this brought to mind an amusing anecdote about Hunter S. Thompson. When he ran for Sheriff's office of Aspen, CO, he shaved his head bald and referred to the (ex-army, Republican) incumbent he was running against as "my long-haired opponent".

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#146

Post by joesmo »

bdcravens wrote: post #24
joesmo wrote: post #9

It doesn't matter what attitudes change, the community relationship between police and citizens will not be repaired till at least my generation is dead (mid 30s) but more likely till at least three current generation of young people is dead. And that only if dramatic changes happen now. Otherwise things will continue to degrade and the police will continue to arrest and kill innocent people for committing crimes tha…

> The irony is, of course, that being a police officer is not even a very dangerous job. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/10/us/mississippi-police-officers... Routine traffic stop. Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request. > That leads me to conclude they're just a bunch of cowards with an inferiority complex out to hurt people to make themselves feel better. I'm sure cops exist who…

I didn't say it was safer than programming. One example does not a dangerous job make. If you were threatened with death by police officers for using a public sidewalk or had any clue at all about what police do in this country you'd feel the same too. It's not bigotry, it's a war. Police versus people. You're just too stupid to see it. Or too white possibly.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#148

Post by TheCoelacanth »

happyscrappy wrote: post #54
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if there was video of Michael Brown going for the officers gun, would they still riot? That's what causes the problem. Police apologists imagine circumstances that justify their abuse, and are absolutely certain that's what actually happened. If there was a video, I wouldn't imagine. I'd watch and see what happened.

>If there was a video, I wouldn't imagine. I'd watch and see what happened. Well you saw the video of him robbing the store and assaulting the clerk moments earlier but that doesn't bother you? Edit since I can't reply: At least you didn't say "Police murder innocent black child" so that is a start. His actions moments before make the cops story more likely to be true.

The only thing that gives the police legitimate cause to kill someone is the threat of imminent violence.

Even if there was a video of him murdering someone that wouldn't justify killing him on the spot. It would justify arresting him and letting his punishment be decided in court.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#149

Post by Terr_ »

hga wrote: post #107
shit_parade2 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By every measure the US has the most imprisonment. America is the première police state, how else would you measure it?

That is perhaps valid, though a counter argument is that in many police states such people are executed instead of imprisoned. Typically it means the police are an instrument of whomever is controlling the state to keep themselves in power, e.g. per Wikipedia " Police state is a term denoting government that exercises power arbitrarily through the police. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state ). I also like to…

> in many police states such people are executed instead of imprisoned.

Well, let's try a thought-experiment with some napkin-math, focusing on "man-hours dominated by the state per capita" and comparing incarceration to execution.

Assuming a stable incarceration rate of 1%, it follows that 1% of all "man-hours" in the nation is being taken, or about 88 man-hours per person per year.

Now, let's assume that another nation, the Bizarro States of America, achieves the same effect, but purely through less-frequent executions. The executed average a "lost remaining life" of 30,000 hours. (~35 years.)

That would require 0.29% of an execution per person per year. The BSA would have to execute 876 THOUSAND people every year to match the USA.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#150

Post by nine_k »

digikata wrote: post #132
nine_k wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a complete civilian, I'd say that police in all their gear do not look intimidating to me. Mostly it's the posture, the facial expression, the tone of voice that makes someone look friendly (or not). I look at them as I look at construction workers or garbage truckers: this is what they have to wear to do their job, not best-looking, not most comfortable. I can sympathize. How is all this gear useful is another qu…

The posture and expression is a part of training often referred to as "Command Presence". I sympathize with the need to protect oneself on the job, but applying "Command Presence" to every situation also escalates problems which would have otherwise been non-issues.

Verily! But most policemen I meet look either neutral or relaxed and friendly. (Granted, I'm a Caucasian male, etc — but I rarely see the "command presence" appearance on streets of New York.)
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