Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin) • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#141

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 1:58 PM UTC

tjradcliffe wrote: post #109

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that wouldn't make very much sense. Far more revolutionaries have been on the guillotine than behind it.

Mostly put there by their fellow-revolutionaries.

Well, it's a high-stakes game. As Benjamin Franklin said, you hang together or your hang separately.

But far more put there by the state, make no mistake. It's not like there haven't been plenty of purges and organized campaigns of systematic repression from the state to the left. But you like ignoring that when we talk about fascist programmers not being able to present their widgets, don't you?

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#142

Post by fche » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:01 PM UTC

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #104

lrc wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that if being part of a bombing campaign isn't an impediment to becoming a Distinguished Professor at UIC, then being part of a bombing campaign isn't enough to get him disinvited from StrangeLoop either, however many astonished tweets might have greeted his appearance on the program: becuase, in that case, it would have been easy for the organizers to separate his political thought from his educational t…

Just playing devils advocate, he had renounced violence by the time he joined academia hadn't he? He wasn't Carlos the Jackal. Honestly, I can't remember the whole weathermen story. This whole episode does make you wonder where the line would be drawn in the future.

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'

2001-09-11, NYT

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#143

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:03 PM UTC

almaIV wrote: post #97

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches? Do you think when the KKK meets, they're unarmed? It's hilarious to me that you seem to think leftists could set off an arms race. Also, what do you think the black panthers, weather underground, etc., were?

Were? The black panthers still exist. They have nothing to do with people calling themselves "anti-fascist" though. "Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches?" I think the kind of person who talks about carrying around baseball bats isn't going to go to these marches. What you think is hilarious is on you and your weird sense of humor. If you go to a meeting with baseball bat…

The "new" black panthers exist, but as a former actual black panther I know says, I don't see their breakfast programs.

Antifa did and do routinely disrupt fascist actions with physical force and frequently got (and get) shot for it. Sometimes the antifa are the ones doing the shooting.

But most of the time the antifa are hilariously underarmed compared to the (as you've pointed out) very well armed rightists and it's a combination of bravado and stupidity that they take the actions they do. The KKK, neo nazis, etc., have all had weapons stronger than baseball bats for a while. There's no "eventually." Do you understand what I'm saying?

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#144

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:06 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #102

almaIV wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were? The black panthers still exist. They have nothing to do with people calling themselves "anti-fascist" though. "Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches?" I think the kind of person who talks about carrying around baseball bats isn't going to go to these marches. What you think is hilarious is on you and your weird sense of humor. If you go to a meeting with baseball bat…

Hmmm, I wasn't thinking of sdfghjkl34567 and company as cowards, but now that you mention the possibility, maybe it isn't a coincidence that the calm events (not protests and marches) they brought baseball bats (and hammers) to in the US, at least per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action#History were in states where their targets couldn't legally carry guns. It would be interesting to check with Google to…

The wikipedia history for ARA itself is a pretty reductive list of actions compared to all ARA-aligned actions. Again, I mentioned ARA because they popularized the tactic of shutting down meetings by pressuring hotels (which is not to say they invented secondary target activism), not because it was the only group doing so or for any other specific reason.

Anti-racist and anti-fascist organizing happens under the mantle of a thousand different groups all over the world. There are antifa in Russia that have it much harder than antifa in France or the UK or the US.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#145

Post by moosey » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

scott_karana wrote: post #72

Kelly2 wrote: post #29

To play devil's advocate, a conference is not only about the speeches, but also about the people you can meet there. Inviting Moldbug bring not only his own person but also his followers. It's understandable if your goal is to foster a diverse crowd to not invite a group of people who constantly argue against any kind of modern society.

> Inviting Moldbug bring not only his own person but also his followers. It's understandable if your goal is to foster a diverse crowd to not invite a group of people who constantly argue against any kind of modern society. Imagine if your sentence was reformulated like this instead. > Inviting Harvey Milk bring not only his own person but also his followers. It's understandable if your goal is to foster a diverse cr…

This is diving into the Paradox of Tolerance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). This posits, should we tolerate the intolerant? Comparing Harvey Milk, who fought for increased tolerance of a group, vs Moldbug, who argues against increased tolerance of another minority group, doesn't exactly follow.

I'm uncertain if I'm willing to consider the position with Moldbug intolerance, because of the paradox listed. This is not someone with a pro-gun or anti-tax or some other form of political speech that are culturally arguable without being an intolerant viewpoint against a group of people.

Still, that's just pointing out the difference. I feel like a bit of a fence sitter to be honest. That being said, I have left jobs because of a boss that had, what I considered, intolerant viewpoints of LGBT and non-white people.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#146

Post by hga » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:48 PM UTC

fche wrote: post #142

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just playing devils advocate, he had renounced violence by the time he joined academia hadn't he? He wasn't Carlos the Jackal. Honestly, I can't remember the whole weathermen story. This whole episode does make you wonder where the line would be drawn in the future.

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.' 2001-09-11, NYT

Let's emphasize, that was printed on "9/11", with a photo of Ayers standing on an American flag....

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#147

Post by sudioStudio64 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 2:59 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #146

fche wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.' 2001-09-11, NYT

Let's emphasize, that was printed on "9/11", with a photo of Ayers standing on an American flag....

He didn't know that 9/11 was going to be 9/11 though...It's dickish, but it was planned to coincide or anything.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#148

Post by sudioStudio64 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

fche wrote: post #142

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just playing devils advocate, he had renounced violence by the time he joined academia hadn't he? He wasn't Carlos the Jackal. Honestly, I can't remember the whole weathermen story. This whole episode does make you wonder where the line would be drawn in the future.

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.' 2001-09-11, NYT

You're right. He considers his violence against he state an appropriate reaction to this day apparently.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#149

Post by Cowen » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #65

Cowen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless the very concept of slavery is supposed to be considered racist I've never read a word of Moldybug or whatever, but in the American context, the very concept of slavery is absolutely considered racist and rightly so. America's history of slavery is completely inseparable from racism.

Slavery as a concept has nothing to do with American racism or American history. Slavery existed long before America was a dirty thought in a pilgrim's hatted head, and it still exists today, and it will likely exist so long as humans are recognizably human. To outright decide that all mentions of a word have such a narrow context is something I cannot accept as valid. It's thoughtcrime.

Concepts are understood in contexts. Everyone involved in this context is American, so it's natural for slavery here to be viewed through an American context. In that context, slavery is inherently racist.

After all, it's not like Moldbug's writing shies away from this idea.

> Not all humans are born the same, of course, and the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery. For others, it is more suited to slavery. And others still are badly suited to either. These characteristics can be expected to group differently in human populations of different origins. Thus, Spaniards and Englishmen in the Americas in the 17th and earlier centuries, whose sense of political correctness was negligible, found that Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#150

Post by almaIV » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #127

almaIV wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical analogies are dated when we have accurate terms now. "There are mental trauma, that has not been caused by physical trauma, that will end up being like the gash you describe never being able to acclimatize to." I'm not so sure about this. Stress happens because of stress hormones. You can develop a tolerance to those hormones like you could develop a tolerance to any drug. The range of experiences that human…

And mental trauma from torture or combat that leads to suicide?

It doesn't lead to suicide. It predisposes one to suicide, but the trauma isn't insurmountable. What causally leads to suicide is the choice to take some kind of weapon and use it on yourself.