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Why do people waste so much time at work?

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Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#141

Post by cryoshon »

floppydisk wrote: post #55
Foomandoonian wrote: post #12

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

Irrelevant example. Jamestown is ancient history, per-industrialization and also by definition of the former, pre-post-industrialisation. Jamestown knew nothing of assembly lines, tractors, robotic fabrication, office jobs, and knowledge work. They never managed to actualize their population's hierarchy of needs enough to reach those levels.

We're far, far beyond needing to strike the earth to get fed each day. The real "producers" are mostly machines which extract value from the earth and process it for end-use. As far as the people who own the machines, they are a mere fraction of the human race... seems a bit silly to accommodate them excessively at the expense of everyone else's well being.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#142

Post by jrs235 »

floppydisk wrote: post #109
Delmania wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that Jamestown was "saved by capitalism" is the typical libertarian/conservative story touted out in discussions about socialism and capitalism. The situation was a lot more nuanced than that. The setup of Jamestown as between the Crown and the investors, not the colonists, who were essentially indentured servants for 7 years. Also, the climate was not right for the types of crops the colonists were trying…

That's an incredibly frustrating response because it doesn't actually address anything substantive but simply attempts to cast dispersion on the arguments. I'll reiterate the request I made to a commentator below in the thread. Are there counter examples of a society working without incentive that allows people to work or not work and if so, why aren't they with us today / if they are, why aren't they more influentia…

First off, I mostly agree with your sentiments. This comment is not in opposition but made to extend the discussion even beyond just money.

In order for a universal basic income system to work, we'll probably need to ditch democracy or put into writing some difficult to change protections. Seeing that the Constitution is being treated as either a) a living breathing document whose meaning changes with time or b) just a piece of inconvenient paper, I don't see a feasible way of making a universal basic income system work (edit: along side a democracy).

What's basic and what are people minimally entitled to? I believe everyone should be provided a place to sleep. But I think that should consist of a cot in a cement dorm like room with shared bathrooms. Other's will want, or with time demand or think that they should be provided a house, with cable TV, a cell phone, etc... With democracy in place it only will take until 51% of people don't want to work until the system completely breaks and falls into havoc (at which point a tyrannic dictator often takes over).

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%."

which will lead to:

"Democracy with a universal basic income will lead to 51% of the people voting to take away the wealth and productivity of the other 49%."

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#143

Post by bobdathinker »

jotm wrote: post #27
Foomandoonian wrote: post #12

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

"Cool story bro. Say that again when you can't pay your rent or even buy some food." - Me. I think everyone should experience that for a few weeks, it changes your perspective on many things.

"If we're gonna "understand" each other, first we gotta make 'em suffer like we're sufferin'! Like when they stop a fight because someone got injured! But I know that'll never happen… that's why there'll always be war. It always rains here and I hate it. It's like this whole country is a big crybaby. I'm going to change it… and protect everyone!"

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Yahiko

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#144

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

floppydisk wrote: post #55
Foomandoonian wrote: post #12

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

> The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work

This is a narrative, not a plain fact.

Many people continue to do work without incentive. They feel demotivated, they don't need the money and can go live in mom's basement. They do it out of boredom, even habit or inertia.

Also, it can be difficult to determine people's incentives, they're not always aware of those themselves, so short of telepathy you can't always claim to know whether one is there or not.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#145

Post by palmer_eldritch »

alextgordon wrote: post #96
Anderkent wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Producing things has a cost" is n obvious, meaningless assertion; the actual suggestion here is that everyone only deserves whatever they manage to produce. That's a fairly conservative viewpoint.

It's an anarchist viewpoint too, when you think about it.

Anarcho-capitalists maybe.

The anarchist movement branched out from socialism and tends to be much more humanist than that.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#146

Post by thatcat »

kamaal wrote: post #135
juliangregorian wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that anyone was ever poor should be an affront to anyone who believes that money is real. People of your ilk are fond of resorting to the old canard "everyone needs a roof over their head and food in their belly". Well, there quite simply is an astounding surplus of such. Those who really believe that the lottery system we currently use of assigning who gets what is truly effective and just will have to answ…

Money is a medium to exchange effort/productivity and hence wealth. It is important because no one gives away their work for free. That is not because we are good/bad, that is because that is how we are by evolution. Our ancestors never climbed a tree unless there was a fruit to pluck or ran unless there was a deer to hunt. And given the effort involved in this, it made zero sense to share things for free. We only ha…

>no one gives away their work for free >it made zero sense to share things for free >We only have an organized form of that currently

And yet much of the technology that power the internet that disseminates this idea you have run on GPL licensed software.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#147

Post by jrs235 »

juliangregorian wrote: post #108
300bps wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who believe they own an entirely imaginary thing called "money" The fact that someone can write this is laughable to anyone that was ever poor in their life. Money is not at all imaginary. It's quite real. The lack of money can ruin your day, your year, your life. As for what money is - it is a productivity storage mechanism. Once you've been productive it allows you to store that productivity in a fungible for…

The fact that anyone was ever poor should be an affront to anyone who believes that money is real. People of your ilk are fond of resorting to the old canard "everyone needs a roof over their head and food in their belly". Well, there quite simply is an astounding surplus of such. Those who really believe that the lottery system we currently use of assigning who gets what is truly effective and just will have to answ…

This comment would be better if it wasn't inflammatory. Instead of

'People of your ilk are fond of resorting to the old canard "everyone needs a roof over their head and food in their belly"'

you could have written

'People are fond of resorting to the old canard "everyone needs a roof over their head and food in their belly"'

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#148

Post by philh »

Delmania wrote: post #128
philh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The situation was a lot more nuanced than that. The setup of Jamestown as between the Crown and the investors, not the colonists, who were essentially indentured servants for 7 years. Also, the climate was not right for the types of crops the colonists were trying to grow, and as someone else mentioned, the settlers were not accustomed to the environment. I don't know anything about Jamestown, but... this kind of f…

Here a more detailed picture: http://www.ushistory.org/us/2c.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamestown,_Virginia#Starving_Ti... While I personally cannot attest to the validity of these sources, it paints a more realistic picture of what happened. The colony's failure was not due to socialism, but to poor planning and expectations.

What I notice about those sources is that the original story in this thread

> They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. ... [Later] they lifted the socialist mandate on redistribution

seems to not be retold in them. (I only skimmed, so perhaps I missed something?)

So, I guess: if that story is true, then those sources still don't contradict it. They add relevant detail, but if the story did happen as told, then it's still evidence that the "socialist" model worked less well than the "capitalist" model. It's somewhat surprising that those sources don't mention the two models tried. (In this case, I expect the "capitalist" model corresponds to 1619 onwards, "individual land ownership was also instituted". The first source doesn't cover this time period at all.)

And if that story is false, then the correct reply seems to be "um, that's not what happened" rather than "here's more detail".

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#149

Post by winter_blue »

normloman wrote: post #120

Before we get into a discussion about basic income and drones making us obsolete, can we talk about cutting hours? First, lets get back to the standard 40 hour work week. That'd be a big step. And after that, can some of us work less? Half of my day is spent browsing the internet out of boredom. I'd get more done if the day was shorter. Better yet, let me telecommute and set my own hours. You'll get the same results…

I totally relate to you. I'd myself personally prefer going half-time (20 hrs/week), with the option of working extra hours. (Perhaps a 5-hours-a-day 4-day work week.)

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#150

Post by Lawtonfogle »

floppydisk wrote: post #55
Foomandoonian wrote: post #12

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

What about a little of column A and a little of column B?

Work gets rewarded, but you have enough to survive (but not thrive) even if you choose to do nothing?

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