Chile is introducing free higher education • Hacker News Board

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#141

Post by nationcrafting » Sat, May 09, 2015, 7:14 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

I live in Peru, next door (give or take a few thousand miles), and completely agree with you w.r.t. Chile being very start-up and generally business-friendly, which does indeed involve government staying out of wealth creators' way, and setting up a couple of programs like Startup Chile. Setting up a new company in Chile can be done in a couple of days now, and much of it online.

Peru is following in Chile's footsteps and has had amazing growth for the last 20 years as a result of a radical reforming of government in the 90s, precisely to kill stifling bureaucracy and red tape. Where there was 50% poverty in the mid-90s, there is now about 20%. Even remote farmers are online via their smartphones, and now know what to grow, when to grow it, how to grow it, where to sell it, etc. Tech and free markets have substantially improved people's lives, to the point that anyone who visited around the year 2000 would just not recognise the place today.

It's clear to me that free markets work, and that Chile and Peru are living proof of it. Sure, it's not first world levels yet, but both countries are certainly getting there at turbo speed. Anyone who doubts this should look at the number of highly qualified migrants going not from Chile and Peru to Spain, but in the other direction: from Spain to Chile and Peru. They see it as a place of opportunity where the old and sclerotic welfare systems of Europe have let them down.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#142

Post by roel_v » Sat, May 09, 2015, 7:15 AM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #96

rhino369 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25% going to college seems low. In America 63% of people have done some college, higher among those who are younger.

Americans take it for granted that the level of education at American colleges is extremely variable. Cornell is called "college" but Tumbleweed State Technical College is called college, too. The education one would get out of university in Germany is equivalent to a top-25 college in the US. On that front, the Germans are doing rather well. How many Americans have a degree from a top-25 institution?

"The education one would get out of university in Germany is equivalent to a top-25 college in the US. "

Yeah well I have to call bullshit on this one. Fachhochschule is tertiary, too.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#143

Post by illumen » Sat, May 09, 2015, 9:08 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #134

illumen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant functionally illiterate. Reading level of US adults at a proficient level is only 13% http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-american-adults-who-...

You're misrepresenting what that stat means. ~86% of Americans are functionally literate. It's ridiculous these kinds of claims even make it to HN comments. Proficient on the survey that derives from, is the highest possible ranking. Proficient on that survey does not equate to functional; anything at or above basic is functional. About half the 14% of people that fall below functional, do so because of language barr…

United States has a functional illiteracy rate of 48.7% according to [0]

The UK is at 21.8% for comparison.

The link you provided shows between 43% and 55% are functionally illiterate (basic or below) depending on which test you look at, for English.

Just because education is poor for people who don't know English as a first language, and just because USA services are not available in Spanish despite such a large percentage speaking Spanish does not mean there is no problem.

Functional illiteracy in the USA is a big problem. The education system in the USA is a massive failure.

[0] Cleckler, Bob (2009). Let's End Our Literacy Crisis, Revised Edition. Salt Lake City, Utah: American University & colleges Press. pp. 15–26. ISBN 1-58982-230-7.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#144

Post by Jdam » Sat, May 09, 2015, 9:57 AM UTC

nazgul wrote: post #5

People don't get that when you make college free, you also take away a lot of the choice that goes into college. German colleges are free but the kids who are chosen to go to them are often selected by the third grade. Lowering the cost of public universities while increasing the quality will pressure private universities to do the same, and thus make college more affordable and accessible for everyone -- it's a much…

"kids who are chosen to go to them are often selected by the third grade."

Not really. I had a friend during elementary school and he was advised to go to the Hauptschule (lowest middle school). Right now he is pursuing a PhD program at one of the "elite" german engineering schools.

"Wer will, der kann" (more or less "You can if you want to")

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#145

Post by dash2 » Sat, May 09, 2015, 10:23 AM UTC

nationcrafting wrote: post #141

MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

I live in Peru, next door (give or take a few thousand miles), and completely agree with you w.r.t. Chile being very start-up and generally business-friendly, which does indeed involve government staying out of wealth creators' way, and setting up a couple of programs like Startup Chile. Setting up a new company in Chile can be done in a couple of days now, and much of it online. Peru is following in Chile's footstep…

That radical reform in the 1990s - was it down to Fujimori? I thought he was corrupt. Would be interested to hear your opinion.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#146

Post by caf » Sat, May 09, 2015, 11:14 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #121

nico wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, my bad. Actual average salary is USD 10k/year. Also notice the USD 5k/year is tuition for an engineering degree (2nd most expensive - only to med school) at the best universities, so it's pretty much one of the most expensive degrees you can get in Chile. Also, it is really easy to get a low-interest student loan (which a lot of people don't even pay). My guess is that access to education in Australia…

Access to education in Australia is definitely better - for most courses entry is egalitarian - students are ranked and preferences orders determine what courses you get offered (it's very different to the US system - you nominate the course you want to take, BS, BA, including the major area and while you can transfer later, relatively few do). Obviously art and music courses often have an audition requirement, and e…

For the interest of those unfamiliar with the scheme, HECS-HELP is structured as an income-contingent loan, albeit one with an inflation-linked indexation rather than a real rate of interest.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#147

Post by peterfirefly » Sat, May 09, 2015, 11:35 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #120

galfarragem wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism is the root of some evils. By the other hand, education is probably the best thing in socialism. I'm from Southwest Europe and I know some russians living here that sent their kids to study in their home country, Russia. They say that subjects for 9th grade here, are learned during 6th in Russia. Is very common in my country that kids from Eastern Europe that still made some schooling there are the best stu…

If that's true, why has it produced such incredibly mediocre end results across the world? Outside of an extremely small number of countries, socialism-tilted education systems have been complete failures at leading to superior results for people, economy, innovation, and so on.

Or you could make the argument that sometimes the good parts of socialist education systems has compensated for the crappy economic system and the capricious dictatorships.

The Soviet Union could not have produced the science and engineering it did without very good education -- in certain, protected pockets. A lot of it was ideological crap but if your university students arrive on the first day with a basic knowledge of calculus, you can teach them proper physics right away.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#148

Post by leke » Sat, May 09, 2015, 12:04 PM UTC

Here in Finland, our education is also free (even for foreigners), but we are now starting to put limits on certain things, like the number of tuition free degrees you can have.

There is now talks of charging foreigners and even introducing basic fees for citizens.

Education is important here because the labour market salaries are strictly based on your qualifications and experience, not your experience or ability alone.

This is why I hope Finland never starts to charge for tuition fees, unless they do away with the qualification based pay scale.

In the future, I think free online education could replace paid education as long as the government recognised the achievements of so called 'self-taught' students. I realise you couldn't do this in full for just any profession though.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#149

Post by atorralb » Sat, May 09, 2015, 12:12 PM UTC

viggity wrote: post #131

"Education is a human right" No, no it isn't. Internet isn't a human right. Human Rights to not require any transaction or service. Human Rights are inherent in personhood, they are observed and respected not provided for. I have the Human Right to speak my mind, it costs you nothing. I have the Human Right to defend myself, it costs you nothing. I have the Human Right to own property, it costs you nothing. http://ww…

Here in Mexico, it is declared in our constitution that it is a human right to have a decent salary... yet most of us Mexicans dont' have it. My point is, anybody can say what are human rights, and I think Chile has the whole right to say education is a human right.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#150

Post by conanbatt » Sat, May 09, 2015, 12:30 PM UTC

nico wrote: post #36

Many problems with the article: 1) There's no way Chilean education is the most expensive in the world. Tuition for an engineering degree at the best universities in Chile is around USD 5k/year, which is way cheaper than pretty much any university in the US. (edit: in fact here's a ranking, and Chile is not even mentioned on it http://www.businessinsider.com/hsbc-australia-is-the-most-ex... ) 2) The tax hike was a bu…

According to this site http://www.camara.cl/camara/transparencia_diputado.aspx?prmI... senate members make 10k dollars a month, how do you get to 300k?

How to pay congress is a problem in poorer countries since too low a salary might invite corruption, and too of a good one attracts the wrong people to the job.