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Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

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Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#141

Post by jqm »

Tloewald wrote: post #109
frik wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't need to talk about pointer events or flexbox or indexeddb or whatever But missing functionality is a deal breaker. * WebRTC - web peer to peer connection: Chrome & Firefox yes, IE 11 incompatible by design (bought Skype for 11b, based on it), Safari no (would be Facetime competitor) * WebSQL - web relational database: Chrome & Safari (also 95% of all smartphones) yes, Firefox & IE no (declared dead by Ora…

I've done a ton of work with contenteditable and it's not especially good on IE (it was especially bad on IE up to IE8) nor especially bad on Safari (it's kind of horrible, but it's horrible everywhere).

Agreed. For instance, IE (11 at least) doesn't permit cells contenteditable. There are some workarounds, but then other browsers seem to have problems.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#142

Post by empthought »

bad_user wrote: post #135
frik wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* There is a common misconception about SQLite3 dynamic type system. It can be done using SQL statements: http://stackoverflow.com/a/2762020 , http://www.sqlite.org/datatype3.html . The browser vendors could enable static typing by default by adding a few lines of code or just a flag afaik. Beside that there are other SQL db engines. SQL-92 was the third revision of the SQL database query language. It's the common di…

Or you know, one could use IndexedDB, because you don't need a freaking relational model, unless you're planning to execute ad-hoc queries and aggregation on a significant amount of data, data that would do well to fit the relational model, which would be a stupid idea to do in the browser. > everyone else would use SQLite anyway That does not make it a web standard and after 25 years of web evolution, I can't believ…

> unless you're planning to execute ad-hoc queries and aggregation on a significant amount of data, data that would do well to fit the relational model, which would be a stupid idea to do in the browser.

You mean like every iOS app that uses Core Data? And web apps will kill native apps with an approach like this?

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#143

Post by empthought »

robmcm wrote: post #84
kolbe wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I'm saying. Amazon, Facebook, Google and Netflix would be victims of this. People would still use their services, but they'd use their services through the dedicated iOS app, not through a browser. Then Apple will have become a necessary middle man for the consumption of the content that those companies distribute. And who knows what Apple would be able to get away with at that point. Charge Facebook…

This would be anti competitive as soon as the app store had a majority market share. If it became too difficult for them "Charge Facebook $100mm" they would replace support with a lower quantity web app and blame Apple. The reality is that Apple don't have as much interest in the web anymore, they have achieved their goal with web standards (removing enough of a dependency on Flash so they didn't have to support it).…

> For Google it's part of their core business

No, it's not.

https://investor.google.com/financial/tables.html

Total Advertising Revenues: $59,056,000,000

Total Other Revenues: $6,945,000,000

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#144

Post by Tloewald »

frik wrote: post #119
Tloewald wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done a ton of work with contenteditable and it's not especially good on IE (it was especially bad on IE up to IE8) nor especially bad on Safari (it's kind of horrible, but it's horrible everywhere).

I edited my text, I meant: Safari on iOS. The touch interface introduces bugs that haven't been fixed for years. Desktop Safari is as buggy as Chrome, both originally based on the same Webkit code. GoogleDocs v2, Word WebApp and iCloud Pages use a JavaScript based page layout engine that renders one DIV per line and don't use the contenteditable. Even the blinking cursor is a DIV. Though, even they do not support tex…

Agreed, contenteditable is terrible in Safari for iOS.

Pages actually uses SVG for most of its layout. It makes me suspect that Apple has an XCode back end for compiling Cocoa/IB code to Javascript.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#145

Post by Tloewald »

wavefunction wrote: post #112
Tloewald wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a weirdly anti-Safari summary, including assumptions about "future Safari" being inferior to "future IE".

I consider Safari to be the worst browser out there, especially when you include "Mobile Safari" in that assessment of Safari.

While your opinion is of course paramount, you should try the Kindle Fire's browser. (I have the original Kindle Fire; newer models are probably better off -- that said, my original iPads still work fine and their browsers are perfectly usable, if slow.)

That said, I use Mobile Safari a lot and it seems pretty good. My experience of Android browsers pretty much ended when my Nexus 7 died, but certainly it did not seem superior in any respect -- and it was markedly inferior in some -- to Mobile Safari.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#146

Post by robmcm »

empthought wrote: post #143
robmcm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be anti competitive as soon as the app store had a majority market share. If it became too difficult for them "Charge Facebook $100mm" they would replace support with a lower quantity web app and blame Apple. The reality is that Apple don't have as much interest in the web anymore, they have achieved their goal with web standards (removing enough of a dependency on Flash so they didn't have to support it).…

> For Google it's part of their core business No, it's not. https://investor.google.com/financial/tables.html Total Advertising Revenues: $59,056,000,000 Total Other Revenues: $6,945,000,000

How do they generate such high advertising revenues? People using google services, allowing them to build detailed portfolios to sell to advertisers.

All of this happens though the web. Native apps and things like android are just a way to drive people back to the web.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#147

Post by [deleted] »

robmcm wrote: post #146
empthought wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Google it's part of their core business No, it's not. https://investor.google.com/financial/tables.html Total Advertising Revenues: $59,056,000,000 Total Other Revenues: $6,945,000,000

How do they generate such high advertising revenues? People using google services, allowing them to build detailed portfolios to sell to advertisers. All of this happens though the web. Native apps and things like android are just a way to drive people back to the web.

[deleted]

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#148

Post by empthought »

robmcm wrote: post #146
empthought wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Google it's part of their core business No, it's not. https://investor.google.com/financial/tables.html Total Advertising Revenues: $59,056,000,000 Total Other Revenues: $6,945,000,000

How do they generate such high advertising revenues? People using google services, allowing them to build detailed portfolios to sell to advertisers. All of this happens though the web. Native apps and things like android are just a way to drive people back to the web.

Most of it comes from AdWords, i.e. Google Search. Angular, GWT, Closure, and Dart have nothing to do with it. They're also all essentially abandonware from Google's point of view, because management has rightly realized they have nothing to do with their core business.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#149

Post by robmcm »

empthought wrote: post #148
robmcm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they generate such high advertising revenues? People using google services, allowing them to build detailed portfolios to sell to advertisers. All of this happens though the web. Native apps and things like android are just a way to drive people back to the web.

Most of it comes from AdWords, i.e. Google Search. Angular, GWT, Closure, and Dart have nothing to do with it. They're also all essentially abandonware from Google's point of view, because management has rightly realized they have nothing to do with their core business.

What are the tools to manage those services written in? Angular was borne out of AdWords tooling, just as React was from FB advertising.

Now consider Google have chromebooks, where those apps must run on the web.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#150

Post by wavefunction »

Tloewald wrote: post #145
wavefunction wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider Safari to be the worst browser out there, especially when you include "Mobile Safari" in that assessment of Safari.

While your opinion is of course paramount, you should try the Kindle Fire's browser. (I have the original Kindle Fire; newer models are probably better off -- that said, my original iPads still work fine and their browsers are perfectly usable, if slow.) That said, I use Mobile Safari a lot and it seems pretty good. My experience of Android browsers pretty much ended when my Nexus 7 died, but certainly it did not see…

This is from a "developing for the web and dealing with Mobile Safari" perspective, so take that for what it's worth.
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