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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#141

Post by angersock »

sliverstorm wrote: post #102
javajosh wrote: post #14

The USA is automatically photographing millions of cars and putting the data in a giant database used by all law-enforcement. It reads like the premise of a dystopian science fiction novel. I can't help but guess that the reaction is going to be a big shoulder shrug, because, to but it bluntly, things aren't that bad for most people. If you are white, have a good job, follow the law, and make sure to richly kiss ass…

To put it even more bluntly, automatic license plate scanning doesn't really seem to have been bad for anybody , aside from people on the lam. Though I am open to examples to the contrary.

This is the sort of apparatus that, once installed, lies dormant until one day it is called into action and springs shut, clamping down on freedom.

Just because they're building the gallows slowly and using such wonderful rope doesn't make the eventual hanging any less troublesome.

EDIT:

You know, 70 years ago today the Red Army found out what could be done with good record keeping and decent surveillance, and at what scale.

Imagine, just imagine, if you could type your favorite demographic into a terminal, get a list of everyone fitting that and some other criteria, and then a list of addresses and doors to knock on.

Mankind and government has never done well with such power.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#142

Post by superuser2 »

wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade):

- Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion

- Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine

- Use of force against people who commit such crimes as selecting their own sexual partners, disobeying their parents, being seen in public with members of the opposite sex, texting members of the opposite sex, being homosexual, etc. Or, more commonly in the "developed" world, failure to investigate or pursue family-based vigilante "justice" against same.

- Failure to acknowledge women as people and rape as a crime

- Committing violence against, or being complicit in violence against, children who dared to go to school

- Corruption to a degree that renders the public health infrastructure so dysfunctional that tens of thousands of people die needlessly

- Outright censorship of any reporting that paints the state in a negative light

---

"Knowing things about citizens" is dangerous because it enables the state to be far more effective in pursuing policies like the above. We ought to limit the government's knowledge of the lives of its citizens because that makes it much harder to effectively implement policies like these.

HOWEVER, HN sounds downright ridiculous when it declares that being listed in a database is comparable to being summarily executed for criticizing state religion.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#143

Post by visarga »

tomphoolery wrote: post #130
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

Much like the Constitution you mentioned, I feel we need some sort of document that explains the intentions behind surveillance and the limitations by which it can be legally used. We have no problem upholding the bill of rights, so why would it be hard to create a set of guidelines for future regulation of surveillance? Making it open is not a complete solution (though it's still a good idea), because we're still no…

> We have no problem upholding the bill of rights

Who has no problem? The gov or the people?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#144

Post by abruzzi »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #91
ryan-allen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tyres have RFID tags in them??! What an unusual thing to put RFID tags in. I wonder what other common items could have tags in them that people are generally unaware of. I'm quite in to cars and I had NO IDEA this was a thing.

Yup, embedded right into the rubber. There are a couple of reasons for this, one is to provide serial numbers which allows you to 'age' the tire. Older tires are less reliable than fresh tires and there are laws in states like California that disallow selling "old" tires as new. You can read the tag and see when the tire was made. The sensors are not used to indicate inflation as far as I know that is a completely se…

In the us all tires have a number stamped in the rubber that indicates the year and week of manufacture. This has been there for a very long time. I'm sure the idea was efficient inventory management more than anything (easier to read without unstacking tires.). Pressure (TPMS) is a very different active device. They're battery powered and the batteries need to be replaced after some time.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#145

Post by themartorana »

greeneggs wrote: post #90
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

A direct attack on this surveillance technology might be a losing battle. But what about passing laws to mitigate its effect, and possibly in the long run help fight it? Two examples: 1. A law requiring the government to delete this data after a certain amount of time. 2. Legal penalties for abusing this data. Perhaps standards for how the data must be protected.

The problem is even prescribed penalties against authority figures are rarely enforced. There are a few low-level people in jail for torture of prisoners, but not one administrator. Bush and Cheney should have been hauled before The Hague, much as they would have demanded of any leader of any other country that had unilaterally broken the Geneva Convention, but Obama wanted to "look forward," not backward.

There is/was almost zero prosecution of individuals involved in the global financial collapse of 2008. Occupy Wall Street protestors, on the other hand, were beaten, arrested, maced, and so on.

Rules against authority figures in this country are for show at best. Didn't used to be that way, but here we are.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#146

Post by themartorana »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

These points are horrible, but have no bearing at all on whether or not the US government is friend or foe.

The existence of worse does not make better good.

The state of things in the US is scary, and Saudi Arabia existing doesn't make it less so.

Edit: I'd argue that corruption of The State by lobbyists, special interest groups, and shadowy Super PACs cost thousands of lives a year in the USA.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#147

Post by visarga »

wickedlogic wrote: post #120
crimsonalucard wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also naive to think of the government as the "bad guy" as well. Classifying the government as bad or good is basically trying to assign a singular attribute to the aggregate actions of thousands of people in politics and government agencies. The truth is neither black or white, and extremely complicated.

Can we all agree that a minimum, they are intentionally misleading their citizens?

Not just that, but they are conducting online propaganda by fake commenting, fake news and manipulation of ranking and news feeds. And not just USA - they do it on an even larger scale in China. (here's a wiki source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party)

Search keyword: "wumao" which means paid internet commentator or "public opinion molder".

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#148

Post by flycaliguy »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

Can somebody good with their logical fallacies let me know if this falls under "Fallacy of relative privation"?

This definition [1] even uses this very argument as an example:

"The counter to the relative privation argument when applied, for example, to compare America with other more tyrannous countries is to note that the proper comparison to make should not be between America and other tyrannies but between America and the ideal of freedom."

I find it a scary way to look at the world and to me it always comes off as less an honest argument and more like somebody who understands fallacy using it to persuade the reader for their own benefit.

Like the sort of thing they'll tell you as they are locking up your cage. "Hey, you're lucky it's dry unlike the cages the bad guys use!" the voice under the helmet said.

[1] http://www.hevanet.com/kort/KING6.HTM

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#149

Post by john61 »

tomphoolery wrote: post #130
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

Much like the Constitution you mentioned, I feel we need some sort of document that explains the intentions behind surveillance and the limitations by which it can be legally used. We have no problem upholding the bill of rights, so why would it be hard to create a set of guidelines for future regulation of surveillance? Making it open is not a complete solution (though it's still a good idea), because we're still no…

The purpose of an insurance is to share the risk of individuals with a great number of people. To pinpoint the risk to a single person is against this purpose. They can get away with this because you have to have a insurance by law. Therefore this practice should be forbidden by law.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#150

Post by [deleted] »

themartorana wrote: post #87
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

Who remembers when Cheney removed his house from Google Earth? All the while the NSA et al were building insane domestic surveillance systems. That's pretty much when I understood what "oligarchy" meant and how very much there we were. Snowden didn't help my mental picture of the country.

[deleted]
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