Gmail blocked in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#141

Post by westiseast » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 1:40 AM UTC

bertil wrote: post #91

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof…

So freedom, open society or democracy wont work in China because... Chinese people are inherently alcoholic, corrupt and sexually abusive to their employees?

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#142

Post by timguoqk » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 1:45 AM UTC

runewell wrote: post #102

I have only been to HK and Macau but never to the China mainland. Pardon my ignorance, but why does the Chinese government bother to censor the Internet? Are the people in China not happy with the progress that has occurred over the past few decades? Is the government really that concerned with their populace discussing politics or sensitive issues openly? Do Chinese provinces consider themselves to be separate and d…

To answer your questions: Chinese government obviously bothers and is very concerned, for many cultural and historical reasons that cannot be easily summarized. Provinces do not have so much power. It's completely different from US. China has been a centralized country since ancient time and the communist party is really good at executing the decision of the central government.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#143

Post by silviogutierrez » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 1:52 AM UTC

djvu9 wrote: post #117

silviogutierrez wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity: what does shadowsocks do that regular SSH tunneling doesn't do? Why is an entire program needed just to run a simple ssh command? I couldn't find any info on the matter.

Shadowsocks is (arguably) easier to use for ordinary people and better informed. Most people don't even have command line experience before. After all this is one problem limited in one country which couldn't be freely discussed so choices may not be "optimal" in some sense.

Ah thanks. So it doesn't actually offer additional functionality, then?

The best tool I've ever used was https://github.com/apenwarr/sshuttle , because it was far lower level than a proxy. Unfortunately, it's super unstable on modern OSX versions.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#144

Post by sremani » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:19 AM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #141

bertil wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof…

So freedom, open society or democracy wont work in China because... Chinese people are inherently alcoholic, corrupt and sexually abusive to their employees?

The honest truth is liberal democracies do not come to fruition in vacuum, Elections are necessary but not sufficient condition for a functioning democracy. Afghanistan has multiple elections, Ukraine has elections, Iraq has elections, what is the state of affairs in these countries. There are subtle and messier parts in Democracy and every society cannot support it given their historical context - most societies have to evolve to certain point of maturity for democracy to take root and more years of practice of it to have it to work as intended.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#145

Post by sagfafh » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:20 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #135

frozenport wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases Except when they don't. For example, it is not unreasonable to say that Putin lost the presidential elections in many regions (recall news stories where they showed 150% of the vote). Most importantly this 'perceived' popularity leads to people not turning out to vote, making it a self fulfilling prophecy. Indeed, the bas…

I've spoken to quite a few Russian tourists that were very vocal in their support for Putin. I'm sure he has his critics too but there are definitely people drinking the kool-aid.

What's wrong with people supporting a unpopular-with-the-west politician? There are plenty of people willing to give their lives for some silly hollywood celebrity!

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#146

Post by djvu9 » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:23 AM UTC

runewell wrote: post #102

I have only been to HK and Macau but never to the China mainland. Pardon my ignorance, but why does the Chinese government bother to censor the Internet? Are the people in China not happy with the progress that has occurred over the past few decades? Is the government really that concerned with their populace discussing politics or sensitive issues openly? Do Chinese provinces consider themselves to be separate and d…

I think the Chinese government works more like a gang than the kind of government you are familiar with. The only politically correct thing is to maintain the ruling, and the real motivations are nothing uncommon: power and money, and most of the time the latter.

The great firewall project is a big business for a lot of people (e.g., billions dollars business if not much more). Hardware providers look for the deals. Professors in universities look for funds (for themselves and for their students). And the biggest cut would be bribes for officials and commissions for pimps. The worst part is this business is sort of under table and there is not much control.

All these people want this business to stay and grow under the name of glorious "reasons", and there is just zero motive for people to get in its way.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#147

Post by sagfafh » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:23 AM UTC

bertil wrote: post #91

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof…

There should be more asians on HN, maybe I will create a version of HN specially for Asians, the amount of western anti-chinese vitriol is disgusting, I just gave you an upload, good luck.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#148

Post by sagfafh » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:24 AM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #141

bertil wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof…

So freedom, open society or democracy wont work in China because... Chinese people are inherently alcoholic, corrupt and sexually abusive to their employees?

You do realize that china is one of the countries that has the best gender equality cultures right.....

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#149

Post by sagfafh » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:31 AM UTC

kaptain wrote: post #44

The sentiment that access to Google services doesn't matter because there are sufficient Chinese replacements is absolutely wrong. The Chinese government is handicapping its tech labor development by blocking Google. I teach a basic web development workshop to university and vocational school students. One of the things we teach is how to look up things for youself on the internet. (Is that a cry of disbelief I hear?…

If I were the chinese government, I would do what the US do: Declare loudly the importance of free speech, human rights etc. while infecting every server with trojans, using the cheap human resource to clickfarm positive wikipedia articles, use machine learning and neural network to recognize dissident patterns on the internet and target them specifically, spy on the population while condamning other countries for citizen surveillance, and most importantly, scream as loudly as you can about how crucial human right is while secretly spending $$$ on extraordinary rendition.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#150

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 3:15 AM UTC

plaguuuuuu wrote: post #136

joyofdata wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you are sitting in your office for 8 hours. In one case you could leave but probably won't - in the other case your boss puts a lock on your door for those 8 hours. Would that make a difference to you?

Poor analogy. And I don't think there needs to be an analogy; the issue is already quite simple. The USA's political system is substantially less free than many other nations. In turn, China is substantially less free than the US. Whether equating the two is really hyperbolic is debatable - functionally speaking, vested interests are allowed to run unchecked in both countries. The main difference really lies in the s…

> In China, the Party runs the show and corporations fall into line.

The corporations can always bribe into the party, and many of the corporations are owned by princelings (or say Wen Jiaobao mom's jewelry empire that got NYT blocked). I would say that China is much worse in that regard.

> China at least has aspirations to lift the living standards of all its citizens.

Income inequality is only getting worse, not better. All boats are lifting right now, just those with guangxi get lifted much faster, while those at the bottom barely keep pace with inflation. If the economy falters this year, it could get very interesting.