Please remove mitsuhiko/* • Hacker News Board

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#141

Post by JohnTHaller » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:22 PM UTC

malloreon wrote: post #137

jnbiche wrote: post #119

These kinds of episodes are making me increasingly depressed. On one hand, I'm incredibly disappointed in the ethics and morality of some of the people who have latched on to Bitcoin. And sadly, I'd have to include tip4commit in that group, particularly since they are "opt-out" and yet have been spamming people after each commit [ubernostrum points out below that they aren't even "opt-out", since they're not honoring…

"scores of established corporations choosing to accept Bitcoin" What percentage of these established corporations "accept" bitcoin through VC-funded startups (which are gambling on the possibility of rising bitcoin value), receiving dollars and never actually holding a bitcoin?

> What percentage of these established corporations "accept" bitcoin through VC-funded startups, receiving dollars and never actually holding a bitcoin?

Basically all of them. No established company wants the associated risk to actually hold bitcoin.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#142

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:23 PM UTC

malloreon wrote: post #137

jnbiche wrote: post #119

These kinds of episodes are making me increasingly depressed. On one hand, I'm incredibly disappointed in the ethics and morality of some of the people who have latched on to Bitcoin. And sadly, I'd have to include tip4commit in that group, particularly since they are "opt-out" and yet have been spamming people after each commit [ubernostrum points out below that they aren't even "opt-out", since they're not honoring…

"scores of established corporations choosing to accept Bitcoin" What percentage of these established corporations "accept" bitcoin through VC-funded startups (which are gambling on the possibility of rising bitcoin value), receiving dollars and never actually holding a bitcoin?

OK? I agree with you. I never claimed they were holding it. Lots of Bitcoin-accepting businesses don't hold Bitcoin, and instead use it as a payment processor.

I don't see the problem with it. They still accept Bitcoin, no scare quotes needed.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#143

Post by Blahah » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:23 PM UTC

malloreon wrote: post #137

jnbiche wrote: post #119

These kinds of episodes are making me increasingly depressed. On one hand, I'm incredibly disappointed in the ethics and morality of some of the people who have latched on to Bitcoin. And sadly, I'd have to include tip4commit in that group, particularly since they are "opt-out" and yet have been spamming people after each commit [ubernostrum points out below that they aren't even "opt-out", since they're not honoring…

"scores of established corporations choosing to accept Bitcoin" What percentage of these established corporations "accept" bitcoin through VC-funded startups (which are gambling on the possibility of rising bitcoin value), receiving dollars and never actually holding a bitcoin?

Who cares? It's no different to accepting Euros but getting dollars in your bank account. The point is that they allow users to spend bitcoins (or Euros).

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#144

Post by milkyway » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:23 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #119

These kinds of episodes are making me increasingly depressed. On one hand, I'm incredibly disappointed in the ethics and morality of some of the people who have latched on to Bitcoin. And sadly, I'd have to include tip4commit in that group, particularly since they are "opt-out" and yet have been spamming people after each commit [ubernostrum points out below that they aren't even "opt-out", since they're not honoring…

That's what Bitcoin will inevitably lead to.

You have basically unregulated money exchange that prides itself with having no rules and "winner takes all".

And then you are surprised that way more scammers, illegitimate users and shady characters in general are using it and representing it.

Well guess what, it's what you signed up for. It's like people are surprised that Tor hidden websites are used by scammers, child porn users, drug stores, gun marketplaces. What did you expect?

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#145

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

randallsquared wrote: post #45

ubernostrum wrote: post #5

I do not normally rant, but tip4commit and its ilk are some of the most infuriating people in the world to deal with, since they're opting other people's projects into something that has all sorts of legal/taxation consequences and think that "we have no way to remove you once you get opted in" is an acceptable answer. I'd push complaints further up to GitHub, since I'm sure something in the way this works violates t…

How can there be taxation consequences unless you act to set up a bitcoin address and accept the offered tip? If you've done all that, I think it's clear you know what you're doing. If you don't do that, then the money (apparently?) returns to the project you committed to, from whence it came. The only way there could be tax is if you receive the money, and that can only happen by you deliberately becoming involved.

To take some examples:

* In some countries it is illegal to opt someone into services they didn't ask for.

* In some countries it is illegal to send unsolicited emails about services.

* In some countries it is illegal to accept or solicit donations without registering first with tax authorities.

* In some countries it is illegal to suggest a financial relationship between yourself and another person/entity when no such relationship exists.

* In some countries it is illegal to pay out to people without also filing tax documents to track the payment and provide the recipient with records they legally are required to keep.

etc., etc.

Their track record when confronted by people who have issues with some/all of the above is not encouraging. They appear to me to be putting far too much faith in "we're doing BitCoin on the internet" as a magic shield against laws, and they do not appear to have ever talked to anyone who knows even the tax or service laws of even major countries in which the developers they solicit on "behalf" of live (evidenced by comments from them that they are too small to afford lawyers).

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#146

Post by exDM69 » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

hippich wrote: post #115

exDM69 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has legal and tax consequences they seem to be blissfully unaware of To make matters worse, they have no idea about or no will to learn about foreign laws. If they listed any of my projects on their website, I, personally would be considered to be participating in illegal activities in my home country. Regardless of whether I would have ever received any money, asking for donations requires a permit ahead of t…

playing devil's advocate: may be tip4commit is not your problem, but rather your country's laws are if these allow to so easily mock anyone and risk of being convicted?

My country has several stupid laws but there's very little I can do to change them (apart from voting).

That doesn't make it OK for someone to run a dodgy "donations/tip/contribution" service, asking for money on my behalf. This could potentially cause problems for lots of people around the world (seems like UK has similar laws too).

Stupid foreign laws don't go away by ignoring them. Running an international service requires you to understand the legislations you operate in.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#147

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #24

colanderman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you could threaten them with a cease & desist over a trademark violation? (Is there an argument to be made that they are illegally using your trademark to market their service by association?) Would be interested to hear from someone with a legal background about this.

Like I said, it's something I've investigated. Best I can tell as a non-attorney acting on advice from others, the way in which they advertise their services could be easily confused as implying a financial relationship with organizations or individuals with whom they do not have a (consenting) financial relationship. Where to go from there is an open question. The bigger question, as always with such things, is whet…

I'd broaden my response to go after services they rely on, starting with github.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#148

Post by Frankeh » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:25 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #119

These kinds of episodes are making me increasingly depressed. On one hand, I'm incredibly disappointed in the ethics and morality of some of the people who have latched on to Bitcoin. And sadly, I'd have to include tip4commit in that group, particularly since they are "opt-out" and yet have been spamming people after each commit [ubernostrum points out below that they aren't even "opt-out", since they're not honoring…

>As just one example of what drew me to Bitcoin, Bitcoin holds (or used to hold) such tremendous promise for the developing world, and to people who are shut out of traditional banking.

Vastly overstated benefits.

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-133-t...

First 20 minutes goes into detail on how useful Bitcoin really is in the developing world.

In short, if you've got access to a data plan and a smartphone you're not going to be unbanked. And if you are unbanked, you're not going to have access to a smartphone and a data plan.

Bitcoin is only actually useful in countries with the infrastructure to support it.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#149

Post by dlisboa » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:25 PM UTC

Cakez0r wrote: post #102

dlisboa wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all open source developers want money for their open source software. You think collecting money using someone else's hard work isn't a bad thing. A hard work that the person explicitly went to the trouble of making free and abstained from any income derived solely from it.

I agree that an open source developer can object to donations on a personal level and I think it's a very reasonable request to personally unsubscribe from communications from some entity. What I don't agree with is complaining that you're being spammed after you put your contact information in the public domain and receive a notification that somebody would like to give you money. I also don't agree that a "project…

I literally disagree with everything you said.

First I don't agree a request should be made to unsubscribe. There shouldn't have been anything to unsubscribe from.

Second it's not the project owner's fault simply because their contact information is out and about. You're saying spamming people with promises of money that has their legal name attached to is just fine and it's the people's fault they allowed themselves to get spammed.

The worst thing, even, is that the people doing the donating have no idea if their money actually got to the person they intended it to.

> I also don't agree that a "project owner" should get to deny any potential contributors to receive donations based on his own personal objections.

This is the part I most strongly disagree with. You're trampling over people's livelihoods, principles and personal choices. Accepting donations has legal repercussions. Legal repercussions the top4commit owners wilfully disregard and have no intention of paying attention to. There are countries with laws that'd make the open source developer liable to damages and tax evasion.

That is only the legal part. The principle part is that many people don't write open source software to get paid from it. They have abdicated from gaining monetary advantage from distribution of knowledge. If you want to pay them, hire them and pay them for their expertise. It's a personal choice, one that is being disrespected here.

This project should simply work on consent-only or be dismantled. Remove all current repositories and advertise to gain project owners who actually want to be there. The people who created tip4commit have no legal expertise or intent to get legal advice, they're not helping the Open Source community, and most of all they have no transparency or accountability in the event of fraud.

Re: Please remove mitsuhiko/*

#150

Post by milkyway » Sat, Nov 01, 2014, 4:27 PM UTC

ayrx wrote: post #124

Even ignoring all the legal implications, it's pretty damn rude to reach out to people contributing to open source projects on their own free time without asking for anything in return and offer them a few measly dollars for hours of work.

That's what I hate about these "bitcoin tips".

Should I act all surprised and glad when someone on reddit "tips" me 4 cents? Price of my time it takes me to "collect" that tip is higher than the tip itself, by factors.