China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea • Hacker News Board

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#141

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 1:44 AM UTC

crapshoot101 wrote: post #44

veidr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons. One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gain…

Japan may not officially have nuclear weapons, but they do not lack the capability - if they decided to weaponize (which would never happen short of a Chinese existential threat), they could do so in a matters of days, not months - the nuclear knowhow is clearly there. The rest of your point is fair - for Japan to go to war would take a fundamental shift in the country, and its questionable whether the Senkaku Island…

> Japan may not officially have nuclear weapons, but they do not lack the capability - if they decided to weaponize (which would never happen short of a Chinese existential threat), they could do so in a matters of days, not months - the nuclear knowhow is clearly there.

You don't make nuclear weapons in days. Unless you have no idea what you are talking about. Weapon grade uranium takes months to produce. Why do you think Iran has been trying for so long to make such material ?

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#142

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 1:53 AM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #62

ekianjo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you come with a large army, invade the country, remove the local government, and replace it with puppets working for your country's interests, "territorial claim" is just a twist of words.

Sorry, but that's stupid on a number of levels. First, territorial claims can be made with or without war, the later of which is (thankfully!) what we're actually talking about with China and the islands. Second, anyone who thinks that the government in Iraq has been a puppet of the United States just isn't paying attention. I get it, you don't like the United States, but you're desperately trying to draw equivalenci…

> Second, anyone who thinks that the government in Iraq has been a puppet of the United States just isn't paying attention.

Please, educate me then.

> I get it, you don't like the United States

Never even said that. I don't like SOME of what the US does, but I think it's a great country in many other aspects. Thanks for the strawman, always appreciated in a discussion.

> It's been a really long time since the US annexed anything

There's real annexation and de facto annexation. There are several countries around the world which are tightly controlled by the US, either through diplomatic means, economic or military pressure. By the way, I did not mention the word "annexation" anywhere in my comment, so I'm not sure where it came from in the discussion.

> In this annexation = invasion world that you're inhabiting, you'd conclude that the United States wants to colonize the Middle East.

No, the US has no interest in colonizing the Middle East. They want to control it to ensure they have priority access to energetic means, and ensure than nobody else does (like China, Russia or other emerging powers). Energy is Power. It's obvious that most of the conflicts we see in the Middle East are linked with struggles to get access to large sources of Energy.

> We just want to buy their oil, aside from that we don't give a damn about them

Oh, I don't have the slight illusion that you care about locals there. Invasion is not motivated by "bringing democracy" to the world, this is just political bullshit, I don't think anyone believes in this anymore.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#143

Post by veidr » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 2:14 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #138

veidr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons. One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gain…

> Japan is a high-functioning democracy I almost choked on that one. Yeah, a democracy when there's a change of prime minister every single year or less, can surely be defined as "high functioning". It's as functional as the 4th Republic was in France. > But they haven't committed any military aggression toward any country in more than 65 years. They have unconditionally supported the US war operations in many theate…

I don't judge the functioning of a democracy by how long a prime minister stays in office, I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption.

On all three of those metrics, Japan does better than, say, the United States.

If the will of the people is 'meh/who cares/none of the above', then that's a different problem, IMO.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#144

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 2:27 AM UTC

veidr wrote: post #143

ekianjo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan is a high-functioning democracy I almost choked on that one. Yeah, a democracy when there's a change of prime minister every single year or less, can surely be defined as "high functioning". It's as functional as the 4th Republic was in France. > But they haven't committed any military aggression toward any country in more than 65 years. They have unconditionally supported the US war operations in many theate…

I don't judge the functioning of a democracy by how long a prime minister stays in office, I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption. On all three of those metrics, Japan does better than, say, the United States. If the will of the people is 'meh/who cares/none of the…

> I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption.

Free of corruption, Japan? Really ? You have a twisted understanding of Japanese politics then.

And by the way, Japan is very much like the US in the fact that you have a bi-party system, with one party more often than not always in power. Hardly a good sign of a healthy democracy when there's so little choice available to voters.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#145

Post by veidr » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 2:43 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #144

veidr wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't judge the functioning of a democracy by how long a prime minister stays in office, I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption. On all three of those metrics, Japan does better than, say, the United States. If the will of the people is 'meh/who cares/none of the…

> I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption. Free of corruption, Japan? Really ? You have a twisted understanding of Japanese politics then. And by the way, Japan is very much like the US in the fact that you have a bi-party system, with one party more often than not a…

Free of election-related corruption as in, the not-really-a-functioning-democracy kind of corruption. There is nowhere in the world where politics itself is free of corruption.

Japanese election results overwhelmingly reflect who actually got the most votes; I have never even heard that point contested.

And little choice? Two-party system? I wonder: have you ever actually seen a Japanese election?

There are so many candidates and parties now that it takes an hour just to google them all. Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), the Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ), the Japanese Communist Party, New Komeito, the Social Democratic Party, Nippon Isshin, the New Rennaissance Party, then we have the Green Wind Party and the Smile Party... and I am definitely missing a whole bunch more -- all of whom have actively serving winners in local government positions and the Japanese Diet.

And in most recent gubernatorial election in Tokyo, where I live, the guy who won wasn't even in any of those parties, but AFAICT made his own party with only himself in it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_gubernatorial_election,_2...

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#146

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 2:53 AM UTC

veidr wrote: post #145

ekianjo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I judge it by whether the citizens have the unfettered ability to vote, whether non-incumbents can get on the ballot, and whether election results accurate and largely free of fraud/corruption. Free of corruption, Japan? Really ? You have a twisted understanding of Japanese politics then. And by the way, Japan is very much like the US in the fact that you have a bi-party system, with one party more often than not a…

Free of election-related corruption as in, the not-really-a-functioning-democracy kind of corruption. There is nowhere in the world where politics itself is free of corruption. Japanese election results overwhelmingly reflect who actually got the most votes; I have never even heard that point contested. And little choice? Two-party system? I wonder: have you ever actually seen a Japanese election? There are so many c…

> And little choice? Two-party system? I wonder: have you ever actually seen a Japanese election?

What I mean is there are only two ruling parties in Japan, the rest is so limited they can never expect to be of any importance at the national level.

> Japanese election results overwhelmingly reflect who actually got the most votes; I have never even heard that point contested.

Well yeah, I am obviously not talking about that kind of corruption.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#147

Post by BrandonMarc » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 7:43 AM UTC

briandh wrote: post #118

akfanta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure where you are going here. China didn't claim all the ocean either, they want the islands.

No. They want the islands as a means to claim the surrounding waters, which which have a lot of real and potential value in fisheries, sea lanes, and offshore oil. The islands themselves are not very valuable.

... also worth mention: they're not too happy with the US Navy operating freely within the South China Sea, even if the rest of the world calls it "international waters". The red line in the map is what they'd rather keep a powerful non-China navy out of, for both defensive and offensive reasons.