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The Unexotic Underclass

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Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#141

Post by km3k »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #71
rattray wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one gives fuck all about the poor. That's blatantly untrue. People care. Ask yourself; how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not wish a better life on poor people. But solving their problems is intimidating, difficult, and probably unprofitable. If the true problem is that poor people are poor because they don't have any money, th…

> how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? Almost all of my friends. And I'm from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, generally considered a pretty open-minded, progressive, tolerant and caring place. My friends are educated, middle-class. They're caring and generous to friends and family and have disposable income. But they're extremely hesitant to something even like Kiva - a charity which allows you…

I donate money to various charities and causes and do use microlending too, but it's not something that I end up talking about with my friends, so they're probably not aware that I do it. Maybe that's the case with your friends too. I probably look like I "don't care about the poor" because I usually don't give money to random people asking me to support causes (like at events or stores) if I'm not familiar with the cause because I prefer to research where my money goes before giving it.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#142

Post by corford »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #111
disjointrevelry wrote: post #104

The article boils down to a basic fact: "The unexotic underclass are unexploitable." Despite all the dancing around this fact, it pops out in the article like a pimple on an ivy leaguing debutant's nose in their weekly dermotalogist face cleansing. There is more than a hint of the populist a. randist philosophy throughout this article. Maybe this is a cult, and it goes without saying. The privileged group (such as th…

I think you are rough on the author -- the author doesn't know they're complaining that the underclass is unexploitable -- they actually believe that 'entrepeneurs' can help the 'underclass' by selling them the right products, if only they'd try harder. The author diagnoses the disease, but their prescription, 'innovating' new things to sell to the underclass (whether in the first or third world) -- will never cure i…

Don't normally do "pedant" posts but this is the second time I've seen it in this thread. The author is a she not a he :)

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#143

Post by rattray »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #71
rattray wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one gives fuck all about the poor. That's blatantly untrue. People care. Ask yourself; how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not wish a better life on poor people. But solving their problems is intimidating, difficult, and probably unprofitable. If the true problem is that poor people are poor because they don't have any money, th…

> how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? Almost all of my friends. And I'm from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, generally considered a pretty open-minded, progressive, tolerant and caring place. My friends are educated, middle-class. They're caring and generous to friends and family and have disposable income. But they're extremely hesitant to something even like Kiva - a charity which allows you…

Governments spending money poorly has to do with poor governance, not necessarily people being uncaring. I don't want to support foreign wars, but lo and behold, my government spends half its budget blowing up civilians!

I also think there's a big difference between "caring" in the abstract and "doing something". It's a shame that more people don't part with more of their money for other people, it's true. But even the stingy likely wish others well, at the very least. Maybe people don't care "enough", or maybe people are too lazy to donate, but it's there.

Your take on that quote is very literally "glass one-third empty". It says we spend as much building new infrastructure as we do feeding our pets! I love little Rosie!! You can't accuse someone of not caring about something if they spend as much on that thing as their pet. Relatedly, it may be a bummer that we don't donate more, but the US at least still donates 2% of its GDP every year. That's not nothing.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#144

Post by 3pt14159 »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #53
3pt14159 wrote: post #17

Let's take a look at the real problems facing America and the rest of the developed world: 1. Mismanaged IT in critical infrastructure. 2. Misallocated funds in programs helping the destitute. 3. Cyclical loops of depression-lack of opportunity-lack of skill building. 4. Health disorders on a massive scale, like metabolic disorder, that can be solved with very simple things like diet and exercise. These places are no…

>that can be solved with very simple things like diet and exercise. "Very simple", applied to diet? Try very controversial. There are tons of different "good diet" theories, and many of them are mutually contradictory. I've tried several, and done a lot of research. I've settled on "low carb" as sustainable, healthy, and actually effective -- and it doesn't need to be terribly expensive (though it's likely more expen…

I didn't really want to get into the weeds with the comment, but every single diet starts with the same thing:

Eliminate artificial sources or additions of fructose / sucrose.

I'm not advocating cutting glucose or even the elimination of starch. I'm saying cutting out the Coca Cola and the sugar we add to yogurt / chocolate milk / pies / ice cream / sauces / candy / cake / muffins / donuts / pizza (sugary tomato sauce) / glazed meats / etc. is step one in stopping metabolic disorder. Basically anywhere you have sugar in the absence of water soluble fibre.

Even if everyone went to eating potatoes and steak every day, that would be a vast improvement. Obviously there is more that can be done, and this is where people start to disagree (dairy good vs dairy bad, meat focussed vs vege focussed, fruit good vs fruit bad, nuts good vs nuts bad) but all that stuff is secondary.

Eating bacon will definitely lead to weight loss, but it's high in cholesterol and saturated fats, usually high in sodium, and devoid of many nutrients that are good for long term health and exercise (like potassium, fibre, vitamin k).

But sure, you are already doing better than 70% of North Americans if you're staying away from fructose / sucrose.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#145

Post by rmc »

julienwaterh wrote: post #137
rmc wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some $44 is a lot. Jack Monroe was poor and a blogger. She wrote a powerful piece about it once: ( http://agirlcalledjack.com/2012/07/30/hunger-hurts/ ): > This morning, small boy had one of the last Weetabix, mashed with water, with a glass of tap water to wash it down with. ‘Where’s Mummys breakfast?’ he asks, big blue eyes and two year old concern. I tell him I’m not hungry, but the rumblings of my stomach cal…

Jack Monroe has a political agenda behind her claims. Note that she voluntarily gave up a full time public-sector job (emergency services dispatcher) with a decent salary to go on benefits. Why does she have a child if she doesn't have the income to support them? Where is the father?

"agenda": The word you use when you want to dismiss someone's issues without actually addressing them.

Most of your questions are answered here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/richard...

"Why does she have a child?"

News for you: Sometimes people's circumstances can change. It's impossible to be sure you're income will be stable for 20 years.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#146

Post by ivv »

VLM wrote: post #139
ivv wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"I'm not fool enough to believe I can solve (eg) poor single mothers' problems in this country with an app." I've recently done research specifically on this topic, and here are three of single moms' many problems that probably could be solved with an app: - Training for a job - Reliable (as in timely and as in not about to fall apart) transportation to a job - Childcare so that she can attend a job

I have personal experience with this from working with multiple single mothers while working retail as a starving student and the most effective way to get single mothers out of poverty is to get rid of the single part of their description. Patching the symptoms temporarily didn't seem to help much. I'm not talking about some retroactive guilt shaming idiocy or a very niche dating website (although I've seen that wor…

Precisely that: a way to pool resources plus a bridge loan to cover a year of mortgage payments that are now her sole responsibility following a divorce.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#147

Post by innguest »

cbd1984 wrote: post #47
rattray wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one gives fuck all about the poor. That's blatantly untrue. People care. Ask yourself; how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not wish a better life on poor people. But solving their problems is intimidating, difficult, and probably unprofitable. If the true problem is that poor people are poor because they don't have any money, th…

> some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance. And here you run up against a religious belief named "The Government Is The Problem", which is utterly intractable and ineradicable in someone with an advanced case, and will never die off because it's founded on either blatant self-interest (A regulatory body is harming my profits!) or soured opti…

I'm a "believer" in TGITP as you say it. It is not based on "blatant self-interest" but on moral principles (don't harm people, don't take their stuff, etc).

Keep in mind what you're doing with that message is trying to discredit a whole school of thought by throwing ad hominem arguments. You are saying those like me have an advanced case of a cultish disease, and that we are selfish and cynical. You're entitled to those opinions, but this strategy of trying to taint a philosophy by attacking its messengers does not work on free thinkers like me that actually try to focus on arguments.

You're distracting and not helping the discussion. This is still an open discussion in philosophy and you're welcome to participate if you can argue with civility.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#148

Post by pjc50 »

julienwaterh wrote: post #137
rmc wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some $44 is a lot. Jack Monroe was poor and a blogger. She wrote a powerful piece about it once: ( http://agirlcalledjack.com/2012/07/30/hunger-hurts/ ): > This morning, small boy had one of the last Weetabix, mashed with water, with a glass of tap water to wash it down with. ‘Where’s Mummys breakfast?’ he asks, big blue eyes and two year old concern. I tell him I’m not hungry, but the rumblings of my stomach cal…

Jack Monroe has a political agenda behind her claims. Note that she voluntarily gave up a full time public-sector job (emergency services dispatcher) with a decent salary to go on benefits. Why does she have a child if she doesn't have the income to support them? Where is the father?

Are you seriously suggesting that she's starving herself and her child deliberately in order to score some sort of political point, and if so what point would that be?

Details are slightly unclear because not everyone's employment and sexual history is on the internet for the benefit of their book reviewers, but it appears that the shiftwork required of the job made it extremely hard to find childcare, and the cost of childcare+commuting to work made working non-viable.

I've no idea where the father is, you could ask about for him? As for the "shouldn't have child" argument, you can't return children for a refund when you become unemployed nor can you ebay them to recoup your costs.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#149

Post by 3pt14159 »

rmc wrote: post #98
3pt14159 wrote: post #17

Let's take a look at the real problems facing America and the rest of the developed world: 1. Mismanaged IT in critical infrastructure. 2. Misallocated funds in programs helping the destitute. 3. Cyclical loops of depression-lack of opportunity-lack of skill building. 4. Health disorders on a massive scale, like metabolic disorder, that can be solved with very simple things like diet and exercise. These places are no…

that can be solved with very simple things like diet and exercise. Not everyone can afford to buy low fat organic produce at a boutique farmer's market that's open when they're at work, or requires a car to visit, and charges a fortune in terms of price-per-meal. Not everyone has the time, money or knowledge to make a home cooked vegetable-rich meal.

I'm not advocating low fat organic produce. I'm advocating cutting out things like Coca Cola, sugar in coffee, and cake.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#150

Post by pjc50 »

wolfgke wrote: post #89
tinco wrote: post #76

I would really love to cater to the unexotic underclass, but how? I mean he goes on and on about how much opportunity there is, but I don't see it. I know how to get 500 white liberal suburbanite young males to pay me $10 per month. They have the money and they love to spend it on tech and gadgetry that makes their lives even more comfortable. But single house mothers? Poor Romanians? How would I even get them to pay…

> I imagine them needing to spend money on food, accepted > education, There is so much educational stuff available on the internet and public libraries that I can't see a reason why there is a lot money to spend on. > housing Accepted > and entertainment. May I tell you something: As a graduate student I have so much work to do that I hardly have any time for entertainment. Thus rather little money is spent on it. C…

Entertainment in the form of television is cheap and widely available. Somehow people still like to argue that the poor should sell their televisions and stare at the wall.

Children also have a pretty constant demand for entertainment.

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