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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#141

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mythz wrote: post #140
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and smoother performance. WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally, its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. And then t…

> WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally So neither that ships with Windows then? > its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. Do you think they've been overrun by developers breaking out WPF? Even when MS is trying to push everyone into creating WindowsStore apps? I hardly ever see any mainstream desktop apps written in WPF. What are som…

> How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from?

They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either.

> So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's

It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing (they weren't that good until then) since the late 90s or even mid 00s. It is taking awhile, but its happening. We will see more language designs that don't bother with IDE independence for better features. Couple that in with the Bret Victor candy, and there is only one way to get there.

> There's also lots of value in small, wrist-friendly languages that don't need an IDE and have a good story for text-editors / command-line. You may want to check out what the dev story is for Clojure / Go / Node which support live-reloading / auto-running of modified tests and fast dev iteration times without IDE's.

I know all about those systems, and they aren't very inspiring. We can do much better than that if we don't limit ourselves to languages just being syntax/semantics/and a compiler.

Re: Dart 1.5

#142

Post by mythz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #141
mythz wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally So neither that ships with Windows then? > its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. Do you think they've been overrun by developers breaking out WPF? Even when MS is trying to push everyone into creating WindowsStore apps? I hardly ever see any mainstream desktop apps written in WPF. What are som…

> How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from? They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either. > So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing (they weren't that good until then) since t…

> They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either.

Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011.

> It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing...

Not nothing, apparently it's enough to declare text-editor devs an extinct species and decree the new generation of devs will skip text editors entirely and only consider IDE-coupled languages.

> Couple that in with the Bret Victor candy, and there is only one way to get there.

Bret Victor showcases the benefits of previewing changes in real-time like the kind you can see with Clojure in LightTable or Swift's playground. Late-bound languages are more suitable for effecting real-time changes than static pre-compiled IDE-coupled languages, the kind that was being done in Smalltalk decades ago, even VB6 had better live-editing support than C#/VS.NET does now with Edit/Continue.

Re: Dart 1.5

#143

Post by azakai »

kevingadd wrote: post #139
azakai wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you're using "open" in a way I haven't heard before (not in the context of "open web"). Not saying it's wrong :) Perhaps we should use it that way too. But you're suggesting a new perspective here. We could debate that first, before debating the technical stuff. Or perhaps we could call it "technologically open." But to focus on the more interesting technical stuff: First, we have a fast Lua VM port. Not LuaJI…

It's my understanding that Shumway is basically a full-scale AS2/AS3 VM & JIT using JS as the codegen target, is that wrong? JSIL is increasingly a JIT that targets JS instead of an offline JS compiler, if only because JS runtimes are so terrible at optimizing C# code and semantics. Eventually it may end up being like Dalvik, where the offline compiler runs a filtering/transform pass on the input bytecode and all the…

Thanks! I forgot Shumway. Last I heard it was competitive with the Flash runtime (better on some stuff, worse on others), so that seems like a clear counterexample to mraleph's concern.

Re: Dart 1.5

#144

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mythz wrote: post #142
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from? They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either. > So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing (they weren't that good until then) since t…

> They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either. Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011. > It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a…

> Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011.

WinRT really is WPF cleaned up a bit and done with a different language (though it supports .NET bindings easily), and ya, missing a bunch of features that even I sorely miss (though to be share, pixel shaders are kind of dangerous!). Same people, same API architecture, same etc...I still prefer WPF, but because I'm writing dev environments and not apps.

> Not nothing, apparently it's enough to declare text-editor devs an extinct species and decree the new generation of devs will skip text editors entirely and only consider IDE-coupled languages.

IDEs weren't a thing until recently (the last 15 or so years). Text-editor devs aren't extinct, just shrinking in numbers. Extinction doesn't occur for another 20 or so years. Anyways, you need IDE believers to make good IDEs, you can tell when an IDE has been pushed out by non-believers (it sucks, because they don't get it).

> Bret Victor showcases the benefits of previewing changes in real-time like the kind you can see with Clojure in LightTable or Swift's playground. Late-bound languages are more suitable for effecting real-time changes than static pre-compiled IDE-coupled languages, the kind that was being done in Smalltalk decades ago, even VB6 had better live-editing support than C#/VS.NET does now with Edit/Continue.

Why must an IDE-coupled language "static" or "pre-compiled"? I agree C# isn't very live nor would I try to make it be live, but the CLR provides a lot of the tools needed to get there (quick real-time tree compilation). I'm working on this right now...(see [1] again if you haven't, and that's from last year).

Your standards of live editing are kind of low, but that's an argument for some other time.

[1] http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/liveprogr...

Re: Dart 1.5

#145

Post by dragonwriter »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #144
mythz wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either. Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011. > It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a…

> Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011. WinRT really is WPF cleaned up a bit and done with a different language (though it supports .NET bindings easily), and ya, missing a bunch of features tha…

> IDEs weren't a thing until recently (the last 15 or so years).

IDEs originated in the 1970s, and became popular in the 1980s.

> Text-editor devs aren't extinct, just shrinking in numbers.

The line between "text editor" and "IDE" is so blurry now that there's probably not a clear line between text editor devs and IDE devs. (And there's plenty of multilanguage devs whose preference on the "editor-IDE" axis probably varies by language -- certainly the level of tooling sophistication I want with Ruby is different than I want with C# or Java.)

And more and more modern languages have both "doesn't need an IDE as much as older static languages" and "can more easily support IDE tooling than older dynamic languages" as features, so there's plenty of fuel for both sides. I don't think the preference for lighter tooling is dying out.

Re: Dart 1.5

#146

Post by laughfactory »

I too would like to see a lot more work done on Dart web frameworks (particularly client side) and a lot more documentation/tutorials demonstrating non-trivial real applications which have a complex UI, data binding, and talk to a database on the backend. Right now it's the dearth of documentation/tutorials/books holding me back as I'm on the beginner end of the spectrum--but still very interested in Dart.

Re: Dart 1.5

#147

Post by Offler »

_greim_ wrote: post #90
alptrv wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any plans to introduce generators or async/await?

I'd like to know too. As clunky as JS is, generators make possible some pretty interesting stuff[1] that I would miss in Dart. [1] https://github.com/visionmedia/co

It sounds like they will add support for the same constructs as JS will have in ES7 https://github.com/lukehoban/ecmascript-asyncawait

Re: Dart 1.5

#148

Post by krainboltgreene »

sethladd wrote: post #133
coldtea wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google is even half interested in Dart (which is seems to be, since it pays for the Dart team), why doesn't it do any proper moves to push it, besides for the browser which ain't gonna fly by itself? 1) Properly package and add "batteries" for a server side version of Dart. Pay some team to write a proper and complete Rails/Django or at least Flask level framework -- and document it. 2) Make a Google version of no…

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team.] 1) Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box. 2) When people say "node.js", they usually mean at least two different things. Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but I'll try to answer. Node.js is "javascript + v8 + server", and the equivalent f…

> Pay some team to write a proper and complete Rails/Django or at least Flask level framework -- and document it.

> Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box.

These aren't the same things and likely a major difference between a popular language and a non-popular language.

Re: Dart 1.5

#149

Post by _random_ »

jmesserly wrote: post #94
YousefED wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think microsoft is very much behind non-.net technologies as well nowadays. My experience with their TypeScript initiative has been really smooth, feels like they're trying to improve JS instead of inventing something new (by sticking as close as possible to the ES.next specs). The generated JS is very close to the original, both in size as readability.

disclaimer: I'm a huge fan of TypeScript and the folks working on it, but now work on Dart and JS stuff at Google, so I'm probably biased in all kinds of ways :) The way I like to think of it: If the main thing you want in JavaScript is types and classes, TypeScript is brilliant. It adds exactly those things, and does so in a very attractive and seamless way. Classes are already in EcmaScript 6, and I wouldn't be sur…

Also Dart can evolve at 10x speed that JS does (can you believe that Harmony still hasn't arrived?).

Re: Dart 1.5

#150

Post by tkubacki »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #117
jmesserly wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

disclaimer: I'm a huge fan of TypeScript and the folks working on it, but now work on Dart and JS stuff at Google, so I'm probably biased in all kinds of ways :) The way I like to think of it: If the main thing you want in JavaScript is types and classes, TypeScript is brilliant. It adds exactly those things, and does so in a very attractive and seamless way. Classes are already in EcmaScript 6, and I wouldn't be sur…

Dart is a platform play influenced by Javascript with some JS interop, but mostly requires its own new libraries and ecosystem, which allows many things to be fixed. Typescript is a layer on top of Javascript and existing Javascript libraries that adds hybrid/latent typing. Typescript doesn't require a new ecosystem, but instead allows enhancements to the existing one. Both approaches are valid. (Disclaimer: MS emplo…

>Typescript is a layer on top of Javascript and existing Javascript libraries

With all horrible issues JS has: unpredictable perf, library hell.

Also my issues with TS are:

1) what if future ECMA will bring incompatible changes with current TS ? TS will break compatibility or we will have another EEE from MS ? Dart clean break seems like a safer approach.

2) there is no cross-platform IDE for TS (yea I know plugins - but Dart has stock cross-platform IDE)

3) TS perf will be always as good as JS

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