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So a female programmer walks into a bar…

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Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#141

Post by kordless »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #100
kordless wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading about history is usually a good way to educate. ENIAC, the world's first and fastest (at that time) electronic computer, had a full time devops staff of six. ENIAC was a beast of a machine, using a whopping 150kW of power, and broke on a daily basis. ENIAC's devops team was comprised of Kay McNulty, Betty Jennings, Betty Snyder, Marlyn Wescoff, Fran Bilas and Ruth Lichterman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIA…

I don't really get it. Why's it matter that some of the first people entering programs on a computer were women. Does the converse hold true too - that we should focus on the "engineers" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bartik , "after learning how the machine worked only by reviewing diagrams of the device and by talking to its engineers: there was no manual") who were presumably* all male (?). And say to everyon…

It matters because it's history and my daughter, for one, found it interesting. She liked the fact that other women did what I do for a living, except they didn't wear pajamas to work like I do. It matters because the world is going need a shit ton of good engineers and the more people who program, the merrier.

We don't have to sweat what happened back then too much, I think. What matter is what we choose to do tomorrow.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#142

Post by pbhjpbhj »

kordless wrote: post #141
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get it. Why's it matter that some of the first people entering programs on a computer were women. Does the converse hold true too - that we should focus on the "engineers" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bartik , "after learning how the machine worked only by reviewing diagrams of the device and by talking to its engineers: there was no manual") who were presumably* all male (?). And say to everyon…

It matters because it's history and my daughter, for one, found it interesting. She liked the fact that other women did what I do for a living, except they didn't wear pajamas to work like I do. It matters because the world is going need a shit ton of good engineers and the more people who program, the merrier. We don't have to sweat what happened back then too much, I think. What matter is what we choose to do tomor…

What matter is what we choose to do today. You can say you're going to do just about anything tomorrow but if you don't do today what enables that then your words are worthless.

I guess I just find the "see, see, women can program too" to be pretty hollow; of course some of them can, just like some men can. Why are the men any less of a role model for budding programmers than the women though; focussing on the sex of particular people doing particular jobs doesn't seem like a good way to free children from the idea that they are limited in the careers they can pursue because of their sex alone (as opposed to characteristics that might be influenced by their sex, which is truistic).

This way just seems to me to say "well unless you can find examples of people of your sex doing that job well then forget it", or worse "it's unusual for women to be clever enough to program so we're making a song-and-dance about these ones". These people, the programmers of ENIAC should be noted for their work, not their sex.

I completely agree with the sentiment not to be bound unnecessarily to historic models.

>She liked the fact that other women did what I do //

Are you comfortable with the primary characteristic that people's work is judged is the sex of the person. Why not "that these were early pioneers in my field"? I'm not saying that you can, or should, control your daughters thought output but just asking if this is really how you want to be viewed WRT your work as a female programmer rather than just as a programmer.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#143

Post by pbhjpbhj »

rsynnott wrote: post #86
mindcrime wrote: post #19

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers”. I really don't understand guys who say (or think) shit like this. Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid . I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years, and I've never seen any reason…

> Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid. Well, obviously. Sexism is an irrational bigotry; you'd expect them to come across stupid when it comes to this sort of thing. > I've never seen any reason to believe that female programmers are in any way less competent than their male counterparts. Ah, but you see, sexists just…

>Sexism is an irrational bigotry //

I don't think it's necessarily either.

Suppose, as is common in my country, all your teachers (from ages 3 to 11 years) were female and all the service staff (janitors) were men. Wouldn't it be rational to assume that only women could be teachers and only men could be cleaners? So long as you're open to other rational viewpoints then you're not bigoted and you're going to be disavowed of your position quite readily.

I don't see a reason why any particular person can't be the best programmer in the world [assuming that can be tested/judged] regardless of sex. However, I consider men's brains and thought patterns to be different (as a statistical population) to women's and so consider that one group is more likely to (a) enjoy a particular activity, and (b) be adapted to excel at it. In this case, I consider the intersect of (a) and (b) to be more commonly found in men.

Would I try to hinder girls from pursuing programming, tech or CompSci careers? Why would I; I'd encourage them just as much as I would boys. Would I go out of my way to ensure there are more opportunities for girls to enter those same careers? Same answer.

Am I an irrational bigot?

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#144

Post by imgabe »

arrrg wrote: post #134
afarrell wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence, "they are sexist because they are cruel."

But that to me seems like a distinction without a difference.

You can be cruel without being sexist, and you can be sexist without being cruel. Every time sexism comes up, comments like this get trotted out. These people are bottom-feeders. They have no ability to affect anything in their own life, so they make hurtful comments on the internet to try and affect others, just so they can feel like they're in control of something.

Stamping out sexism isn't going to stop them from doing that. They're not reading these articles or these comments. If they are, they're just happy that someone is paying attention to them.

I think there are far bigger fish to fry when it comes to fighting sexism than going after some basement-dwelling mouth-breathers who don't actually matter. You could actually focus on normal, good-intentioned people who have just been brought up in a culture of sexism and would happily change if it were pointed out to them how they're hurting others.

edit: I shouldn't say they "don't matter" as I've never been on the receiving end of it, and it probably matters a great deal when you are. I just meant that the ability of these people to affect someone's life beyond making hurtful comments on the Internet is minimal.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#145

Post by afarrell »

imgabe wrote: post #144
arrrg wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that to me seems like a distinction without a difference.

You can be cruel without being sexist, and you can be sexist without being cruel. Every time sexism comes up, comments like this get trotted out. These people are bottom-feeders. They have no ability to affect anything in their own life, so they make hurtful comments on the internet to try and affect others, just so they can feel like they're in control of something. Stamping out sexism isn't going to stop them from…

And by doing that, you make sexism a less potent weapon for the algae-eaters to use.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#146

Post by hashbanged »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #142
kordless wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because it's history and my daughter, for one, found it interesting. She liked the fact that other women did what I do for a living, except they didn't wear pajamas to work like I do. It matters because the world is going need a shit ton of good engineers and the more people who program, the merrier. We don't have to sweat what happened back then too much, I think. What matter is what we choose to do tomor…

What matter is what we choose to do today. You can say you're going to do just about anything tomorrow but if you don't do today what enables that then your words are worthless. I guess I just find the "see, see, women can program too" to be pretty hollow; of course some of them can, just like some men can. Why are the men any less of a role model for budding programmers than the women though; focussing on the sex of…

> "it's unusual for women to be clever enough to program so we're making a song-and-dance about these ones"

The more examples you see of people like you programming, the less of a song-and-dance you think it is. And you might perceive it as putting them up on a pedestal, but others don't.

In an ideal world, we don't have to increase the visibility of other genders in programming.

Did you have role models and examples that you looked up to who also looked like you? I think it's a hard thing to empathize with if you've always had those examples.

> "well unless you can find examples of people of your sex doing that job well then forget it"

Which is a stronger message to a child: other genders or ethnicities being held up as examples or never seeing anyone who looks like you doing what you want to do?

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#147

Post by kordless »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #142
kordless wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because it's history and my daughter, for one, found it interesting. She liked the fact that other women did what I do for a living, except they didn't wear pajamas to work like I do. It matters because the world is going need a shit ton of good engineers and the more people who program, the merrier. We don't have to sweat what happened back then too much, I think. What matter is what we choose to do tomor…

What matter is what we choose to do today. You can say you're going to do just about anything tomorrow but if you don't do today what enables that then your words are worthless. I guess I just find the "see, see, women can program too" to be pretty hollow; of course some of them can, just like some men can. Why are the men any less of a role model for budding programmers than the women though; focussing on the sex of…

Disambiguation only goes so far with things. With men and women it gets close to us all be 'human' but it remains our sex is a strong identifier, and one that binds us uniquely socially. I'm trying to see your point on "see, see, women can program too", but in reality I find you indicating I'm saying things I did not. All I did was mention what my daughter said to me and using natural, non-blaming identifiers to talk about it with her. You took it took it to a whole another level by making me say things in ways that was never my intent.

I'm going to be cool with the fact you did this with my comment, but you should really consider why you feel this way about it instead of doing a hack job with my comments. I support anyone doing anything they want and if you knew me, you'd know I'm someone who considers someone's worth by their actions, not by what they look, smell or taste like.

That also goes for people who don't quite understand how to state how they themselves feel about important matters.

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