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How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

jeffknupp.com

141–150 of 219 posts

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#141

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

That's completely inaccurate, DevOps is most definitely about getting Developers to think about their software being Operated, and it is not about 'Ops Guys' coding for the first time ever - we always wrote automation tools.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#142

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

well, in many places DevOps is implemented as "developers on PagerDuty". When I (the developer) have to be on-call for 7 day rotations, phone by bedside, paged at all hours, then I'm most definitely acting as operations - probably NOT what I signed up for. And, contrary to the stated intentions, I've directly observed developers making crappy, band-aid fixes to ongoing production problems in the interest of "making t…

As the guy who's usually on pager rotation (and too often with far too bodies to share it), I disagree. I wrote a detailed comment a few days ago explaining my rational here, in conjunction with overtime / off-the-clock responsibilities:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7575875

• It increases pager coverage, and reduces any one person's pager obligations. Simply having pager anticipation is a mental burden after a while.

• It creates a stronger incentive for response procedures: what are the expected obligations of response staff, what's considered sufficient effort, what's the escalation policy, who is expected to participate, what are consequences of failure to respond?

• Cross-training. Eng learns ops tasks, ops has a better opportunity for learning what eng is up to and deals with.

• It makes engineering more aware of the consequences of their actions: is insufficient defensive engineering causing outages (say, unlimited remote access to expensive operations), are alerts, notification mails, and/or monitoring/logging obscuring rather than revealing anomalous conditions? Are mechanisms for adjusting, repairing, updating, and/or restarting systems complex and/or failure prone themselves?

My experience at one site, where I was a recent staff member (and hence unfamiliar with policies, procedures, and capabilities), systems went down starting at 2am, I was unable to raise engineering or my manager, and the response the next staff meeting to my observation of this was pretty much "so what" did not endear me to the organization (I left it shortly afterward).

Note that what I'm calling for isn't for eng to be the sole group on pager duty, but for eng and ops to share that responsibility.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#143

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

Not really. Devops isn't a role or a person or even a process. It's a way to structure releasing software.

It's anti-silo. Instead of group A building software in isolation and then tossing it over wall to group B to deploy. Those groups merge, cross-pollinate or at least communicate frequently. So, the group building software is away of the needs/issues of the group deploying/running the software and vice versa.

extend to other groups functions (QA, maintenance, sales).

It doesn't matter if one person does a bit of each role or if there are persons for each role. As long as the work closely together.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#144

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

DevOps means different things to different people it seems. I've spoken with dozens of companies and each one seems to have a different definition. Some view it as an SA with a brain. Others view it as a full stack developer, still others view it as guys focused on developing configuration management and just that. Others consider DevOps tools developers. Some just say DevOps and they mean "guy we can ask to just do whatever needs to get done, helpdesk, networking, configuration management, training, etc"

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#145
"The underlying cause of my pain? This fact: not every company is a start-up, though it appears that every company must act as though they were."

DevOps is not about startups, DevOps is about avoiding the pitfalls of big companies who completely fail and leave all of their employees jobless by focusing on all of the wrong decisions and initiatives.

It's about outlawing cowboy coding and other bad habits that people pick up as hobbyists, and intertwining business and technical objectives reasonably.

Why is a full-stack developer important? Why is eroding the difference in responsibility between Dev, Ops, and QA important? Because traditionally along these boundaries have been opportunities for individuals to absolve themselves of responsibility. More than anything, DevOps is about not living in that world anymore.

Some people won't survive outside that world. Those who want to will read "The Phoenix Project" by Gene Kim.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're working on a startup that is not yet profitable (or at least compensating you for your time), your time is currently worth close to nothing. That same time may or may not have a higher value later .

Your time is priceless to a startup - it can't afford to pay you your value and yet entirely depends on your output. The startup literally can't exist without you.

That depends though on the current value of the start up, which could very well be close to zero.

Say you could be paid $100 p/h at some other company, but instead your start up is paying you $5 p/h because that is all it can currently afford.

Say you can save yourself a weeks work by going with one hosting option that is twice as expensive but the total additional cost would allow you to work for $5 p/h for an additional two weeks then that isn't a great trade because the "value" of that labor is both unknown and irrelevant at this point. It might be $0 p/h or it might be $10000+ p/h.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#147

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

Actually finally created a Hacker News account to come here and say something similar to this. The article is remarkably misguided in several ways, including a fundamental misunderstanding of what "DevOps" means. Being an SA, what rankles me most is the attitude (unfortunately common in the industry) that "As a developer, I could naturally be the world's greatest Sysadmin, if only it weren't such a waste of my amazin…

Yeah. As a developer I used to have a similar attitude, until I saw really good sysadmins (and DBAs) up close. Most developers are kidding themselves if they think they could replace either without at least as much extensive training as it would take one of them to replace the developer.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - and I guess the point is that the person who is working on features ends up also being that one person who does the automatic provisioning and testing pipeline administration work, as well. This is honestly why I've gone with PaaS - mostly Heroku - for several months now when deploying a new application. Why on Earth developers do anything other than working on the core features of their program I don't know.…

Try convincing the ops at a large bank, insurance company or government that they can run their infrastructure in the public cloud, and watch as you get laughed out of the building.

I think it depends on your definition of infrastructure. Let me illustrate..

Core banking, batch processing, highly sensitive data stores? Probably not great candidates for public cloud consumption.

Web properties and services which don't rely on said functionality? Absolutely great candidates.

And the reality is, whether the IT guys like it or not, developers inside of these orgs are consuming cloud because getting a VM in a traditional sense takes forever (for good reason.)

As a result, we're seeing a shift in the industry where the idea of large corps / financial institutions / government are being pragmatic about the idea of a 'hybrid cloud.'

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - and I guess the point is that the person who is working on features ends up also being that one person who does the automatic provisioning and testing pipeline administration work, as well. This is honestly why I've gone with PaaS - mostly Heroku - for several months now when deploying a new application. Why on Earth developers do anything other than working on the core features of their program I don't know.…

If you're working on a startup that is not yet profitable (or at least compensating you for your time), your time is currently worth close to nothing. That same time may or may not have a higher value later .

That's only true if you have no money and have the means to live completely for free. Otherwise, if like most human beings you have some expenses, than regardless of whether your time is producing value it certainly has a cost, and that can be directly compared against the cost of a PaaS.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, in many places DevOps is implemented as "developers on PagerDuty". When I (the developer) have to be on-call for 7 day rotations, phone by bedside, paged at all hours, then I'm most definitely acting as operations - probably NOT what I signed up for. And, contrary to the stated intentions, I've directly observed developers making crappy, band-aid fixes to ongoing production problems in the interest of "making t…

As the guy who's usually on pager rotation (and too often with far too bodies to share it), I disagree. I wrote a detailed comment a few days ago explaining my rational here, in conjunction with overtime / off-the-clock responsibilities: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7575875 • It increases pager coverage, and reduces any one person's pager obligations. Simply having pager anticipation is a mental burden after…

I'm glad you have had a positive experience, but, it feels like your outlooks is unique among many of the developers I talk to daily. Could be selection bias, though! Good things to think about.
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