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Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#141

Post by TelmoMenezes »

JackC wrote: post #132
mrcharles wrote: post #94

On the game I'm currently working on, it's built very heavily around Lua. So for the save system, we simply fill a large Lua table, and then write that to disk, as Lua code. The 'save' file then simply becomes a Lua file that can be read directly into Lua. This is absolutely amazing for debugging purposes. Also you never have to worry about corrupt save files or anything of it's ilk. Development is easier, diagnosing…

You probably know this, but remember that storing user data as code is a place where you (general "you") have to think very carefully about security. Is there any way that arbitrary code in the file could compromise the user's system? If so, does the user know to treat these data files as executables? Is there any way someone untrusted could ever edit the file without the user's knowledge? Even in combination with ot…

This is a good point, but I feel that discouraging this type of approach is not the way to go.

I apologise in advance for ranting... I hope this is not too off-topic, but instead a "zoom out" on the issue.

This touches on something deep and wrong about how we use computers these days. Computers are really good at being computers, and the amplification of intellectual capabilities they afford is tremendous, but this is reserved for a limited few that were persistent enough and learned enough to rediscover the raw computer buried underneath, and what it can do.

For example, I dream of a world where everything communicates through s-expressions, all code is data and all data is code. Everything understandable all the way down. Imagine what people from all fields could create with this level of plug-ability and inter-operability. We had a whiff of that with the web so far, but it could be so much more powerful, so much simpler, so much more elegant. All the computer science is there, it's just a social problem.

I understand the security issues, but surely limiting the potential of computers is not the solution. There has to be a better way.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#142

Post by Zecc »

dbaupp wrote: post #112
mrcharles wrote: post #94

On the game I'm currently working on, it's built very heavily around Lua. So for the save system, we simply fill a large Lua table, and then write that to disk, as Lua code. The 'save' file then simply becomes a Lua file that can be read directly into Lua. This is absolutely amazing for debugging purposes. Also you never have to worry about corrupt save files or anything of it's ilk. Development is easier, diagnosing…

Why does using a Lua-basef format stop the files being corrupted?

It doesn't. But it makes them much easier to fix.

Edit: Igglyboo has a point too.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#143

Post by phn »

Touche wrote: post #111
mrcharles wrote: post #94

On the game I'm currently working on, it's built very heavily around Lua. So for the save system, we simply fill a large Lua table, and then write that to disk, as Lua code. The 'save' file then simply becomes a Lua file that can be read directly into Lua. This is absolutely amazing for debugging purposes. Also you never have to worry about corrupt save files or anything of it's ilk. Development is easier, diagnosing…

That's how people are going to cheat at your game.

Cheating is good, I remember having tons of fun with age of empires and sim city because I used cheat codes.

If the player has fun, it's a nice feature! :D

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#144

Post by sanderjd »

bananas wrote: post #115
sanderjd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is that massive semantic difference? If you want the number represented by 1e999 as the value for salary, at some point, something has to take "1e999", whether you call it a string or a something-with-no-type, and turn it into a number. Your deserializer has to know to do that in either case.

As follows. It's more how the abstraction works. XML: ->[byte stream]->[deserializer]->[bignum] JSON: ->[byte stream]->[json reader]->[string]->[deserializer]->[bignum] The latter is, well, wrong.

How does the [deserializer] step in the XML example know to call into [bignum], and why can't the [json reader] in the JSON example have that knowledge in the same fashion?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#145

Post by tokenizerrr »

seanalltogether wrote: post #136
bhaak wrote: post #15

What's with all the XML hate? Of course, doing everything in XML is a stupid idea (e.g. XSLT and Ant) and thanks heaven that hype is over. But if I want something that is able to express data structures customized by myself, usually with hierarchical data that can be verified for validity and syntax (XML Schemas or old-school DTD), what other options are there? Doing hierarchical data in SQL is a bitch and if you wan…

My biggest hatred of xml as a data structure, and believe me I've seen this in production systems more then once, is that it allows for the following. Personal ... Business ... 496F3AB This may seem innocuous, but XML allows mixing of arrays and objects too liberally, and makes automatic parsing overly complex. At first appears to be an array of account objects, but wait now that we reach the end we find that is an o…

Well yes. The problem there is that someone made a bad decision on how to structure their XML. If the same was done like this:

      
    	
    		Personal
    		...
    	
    	
    		Business
    		...
it would make a lot more sense, I think.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#146

Post by ufo »

JackC wrote: post #132
mrcharles wrote: post #94

On the game I'm currently working on, it's built very heavily around Lua. So for the save system, we simply fill a large Lua table, and then write that to disk, as Lua code. The 'save' file then simply becomes a Lua file that can be read directly into Lua. This is absolutely amazing for debugging purposes. Also you never have to worry about corrupt save files or anything of it's ilk. Development is easier, diagnosing…

You probably know this, but remember that storing user data as code is a place where you (general "you") have to think very carefully about security. Is there any way that arbitrary code in the file could compromise the user's system? If so, does the user know to treat these data files as executables? Is there any way someone untrusted could ever edit the file without the user's knowledge? Even in combination with ot…

Lua sandboxing is relatively straightfoward. You can choose what functinos from the standard library the script you are evaluating will see in its global scope. By passing an empty scope the only thing the evaluated script can do is build tables, concatenate strings, do arithmetic, etc. You only need to worry about DOS due to infinite loops but there are also workarounds for that).

In Loa 5.1 you can use setfenv http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#pdf-setfenv

And in Lua 5.2 the functions that eval strings receive the global scope as an optional parameter. http://www.lua.org/manual/5.2/manual.html#pdf-loadfile

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#147

Post by judk »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #141
JackC wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably know this, but remember that storing user data as code is a place where you (general "you") have to think very carefully about security. Is there any way that arbitrary code in the file could compromise the user's system? If so, does the user know to treat these data files as executables? Is there any way someone untrusted could ever edit the file without the user's knowledge? Even in combination with ot…

This is a good point, but I feel that discouraging this type of approach is not the way to go. I apologise in advance for ranting... I hope this is not too off-topic, but instead a "zoom out" on the issue. This touches on something deep and wrong about how we use computers these days. Computers are really good at being computers, and the amplification of intellectual capabilities they afford is tremendous, but this i…

When my conputer has the potential to erase my bank account, I want to limit its potential.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#148

Post by pjc50 »

smharris65 wrote: post #113
bsder wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start here: http://randyfay.com/content/avoiding-git-disasters-gory-stor... So, the solution to the fact that the merging UI is a pile of garbage is HAVE A SINGLE PERSON ALWAYS DO THE MERGE . Excuse me? The whole point of a distributed revision control system is so I don't have to have a single choke point. That's the definition of distributed . Then there was the KDE disaster: http://jefferai.org/2013/03/29/di…

The issues in the randyfay.com post are due to a misunderstanding when using git as a "centralized" repo like SVN. Git, by design, does not enforce a central repo even if you designate one logically. These issues can be completely avoided if you merge the right way: http://tech.novapost.fr/merging-the-right-way-en.html

Well, that confirms that the "obvious" workflow of "git pull" is dangerous. At least it explains all the spurious merges. Why on earth did it ship with this broken design? Why doesn't git pull do the right thing by default?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#149

Post by seabee »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #141
JackC wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably know this, but remember that storing user data as code is a place where you (general "you") have to think very carefully about security. Is there any way that arbitrary code in the file could compromise the user's system? If so, does the user know to treat these data files as executables? Is there any way someone untrusted could ever edit the file without the user's knowledge? Even in combination with ot…

This is a good point, but I feel that discouraging this type of approach is not the way to go. I apologise in advance for ranting... I hope this is not too off-topic, but instead a "zoom out" on the issue. This touches on something deep and wrong about how we use computers these days. Computers are really good at being computers, and the amplification of intellectual capabilities they afford is tremendous, but this i…

In a world where users will willingly enter malicious code into their computers if they believe it will do something they want[1], can there really be a better way?

[1] https://www.facebook.com/selfxss

Re: Linus Torvalds: “I'm happily hacking on a new save format using ‘libgit2’”

#150

Post by jamesgeck0 »

bsder wrote: post #105
taeric wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you are referring to. What are some common ways "expert users" manage to "trash their repositories?"

Let's start here: http://randyfay.com/content/avoiding-git-disasters-gory-stor... So, the solution to the fact that the merging UI is a pile of garbage is HAVE A SINGLE PERSON ALWAYS DO THE MERGE . Excuse me? The whole point of a distributed revision control system is so I don't have to have a single choke point. That's the definition of distributed . Then there was the KDE disaster: http://jefferai.org/2013/03/29/di…

So, the solution to the fact that the merging UI is a pile of garbage is HAVE A SINGLE PERSON ALWAYS DO THE MERGE. Excuse me?

That isn't what the post advocates. He says that having a single person approve the pull request is a good idea, but approving the pull isn't the same thing as manually doing a merge. Projects I've worked on required that the submitter merge master into their branch before their PR would be accepted.

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