What prevents a proxy-net from starting up and flubbing the recipients/senders of the data such that the ISP can't see what site/domain the traffic is coming from and can't enforce their 1s page-load "tax" on them?
We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
141–150 of 275 posts
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
US Telcos = Natural Monopoly + Regulatory Capture > The cost is so high partially due to special agreements This is true, but it doesn't contradict the fact that telcos are also natural monopolies. Let's play a game: pretend that all of these special agreements have suddenly become invalid and the market has become deregulated. Assume you have (or can acquire) the technical expertise to challenge them. What's your bu…
> What's your business plan? Thanks, this is is a point I do not see expressed enough. Regulatory capture just one expression of a 'free market'. When you are a non-moral entity, free to do business however you want, you will cheat, you will find ways within any system to lock others out of your market, you will screw the customer for every last cent, you will break the law if you can get away with it - or at least t…
> Liberalists seem to believe that free-marketism is a self-[optimizing] algorithm.
It's worth noting that in the US, the term "liberal" is often used in association with those who are skeptical of the free market (moreso than their political opponents, anyway). Classical liberalism does promote laissez-faire economic policy, so you aren't incorrect, but the term is a bit ambiguous in context (see the 2nd paragraph in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism )
Anyway, I agree completely with your point. Business interests and consumer interests often oppose one another, and I believe that governments ought to put consumer interests first, even though presently they have a track record of doing the exact opposite.
Campaign finance reform would be a good start (private campaign finance => bribery is a prerequisite for obtaining power).
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#143I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…
You should go read about the history of the Internet. AT&T was a major barrier to early efforts in creating the Internet. See, e.g., http://www.amazon.com/Where-Wizards-Stay-Up-Late/dp/06848326... In my view, the breakup of the Bell System laid the groundwork for the Internet to thrive.
For that matter, read about the origins of antitrust law. Monopolies and oligopolies neutralize the market's usual power to straighten things out. Giant companies aren't generally interested in innovation; they're interested in dominance. (See The Innovator's Dilemma for more on the economics of why.)
If it makes you feel any better, it's not like the FCC's going to go around kicking down telco doors and inspecting routers. Proof of net neutrality failures will come from us, the nerds. As individuals, measuring our own networks, and as the techies at innovative companies, going public when telcos try to discriminate against them.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…
Not at all "natural". The cost is so high partially due to special agreements between these corporations and governments, from local agreements to lay down fiber, to national agreements regarding the use of the electromagnetic spectrum.
You may be right but this is a moot point for the present discussion. Regardless how or why, there is a monopoly and it will be very difficult for any party to provide a competing service.
The idea that a new competitor will jump in and make everything better is an absolute delusion.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#145What prevents a proxy-net from starting up and flubbing the recipients/senders of the data such that the ISP can't see what site/domain the traffic is coming from and can't enforce their 1s page-load "tax" on them?
Such a proxy-net would intrinsically increase latency and lower bandwidth. Oops.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#146What's to stop everyone from setting up VPNs en masse? The difficulty alone?
From what I understand, ISPs might be able to win the cat and mouse game, and uncover at least the type of traffic, whether p2p, streaming video etc. Not sure where the cat and mouse are with today's technology.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#147What prevents a proxy-net from starting up and flubbing the recipients/senders of the data such that the ISP can't see what site/domain the traffic is coming from and can't enforce their 1s page-load "tax" on them?
Well, first that would itself impose a page-load tax.
Second, ISPs could just impose a page-load tax on data where it couldn't verify that the source was a one not subject to the tax, instead of imposing it on those that they could verify were subject.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
While you are correct that telcos currently enjoy a certain degree of regulatory capture, they are also natural monopolies/oligopolies in the sense that competitors have an astronomical barrier to entry. It's tempting but naive to think that all we need to do in order to see the market right itself is to eliminate existing regulations. What we actually need to do is to change regulations to encourage competition, bot…
> .. by eliminating explicit monopoly rights and by mandating and/or price-controlling B2B bandwidth/traffic sales ... Are you willing to try the former before the latter? If so, I don't think we're far off .. I'm not an absolutist, if there is a compelling case after the artificial constraints are removed, then I might consider state intervention as a last resort. But not before giving the free market a fair shot.
In principle, I agree with you. In practice, I'm hesitant due to the analogy with the health care market. We've been giving them "just one more chance" to find the set of market regulations that promote progress for the last few decades at the price of trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives every year (in comparison to established single-payer systems). Without a concrete stopping point and with LOTS of money behind the lobby to perpetuate a pathological free market experiment long past its due date, I'm inclined to fight for utility regulation from the getgo.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#149I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…
Your argument is that the free market will favor ISPs that support/don't oppose net-neutrality. I argue that most people won't care about their "choice" (air quotes, because most people can't pick from more than 2 ISPs) of ISP until it's too late. Already you have ISPs throttling access to streaming video sites (netflix, youtube, twitch) with little to no REAL blowback. With the barriers to entry as high as they are,…
Yes. As a person who has been using small ISPs since forever, and who tries to encourage others to do the same, most people just don't have the background or the inclination to really understand this stuff. They just see that the first-year cost for a major telco is twice what the open alternative is and they're done.
I'm lucky I live in the SF area, where there are enough hardcore nerds to support Sonic.net, a great independent ISP. But elsewhere? Not so much.
Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality
#150Net neutrality should be extended to the mobile networks, not dropped for the landline ones. ISPs should be regulated like essential dumb data pipes.