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About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

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Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#141

Post by saryant »

ebiester wrote: post #118
runT1ME wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not scala? Scala 8 years ago is where java 8 is now, and you can ignore most of the java frameworks.

Implicits, SBT being anything but simple, and compile times. :) People have suggested sticking to a subset of Scala for most purposes, but what happens when you run into a problem with a library? Suddenly, you're diving into Slick (from a friend's example) or Play (from a personal, painful example) and can't make heads or tails of the code because of how different the paradigm is. Frankly, I'd rather just go to Erlan…

What did you find painful about Play? I've dived into its internals a number of times, including to submit a performance fix a few months ago, and I've found it to be quite easy to understand.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#142

Post by Iftheshoefits »

sanderjd wrote: post #135
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take a very cynical view of these things, and from that perspective it doesn't surprise me at all, really. My cynical view is that the "lousy" ones are popular because they are easy even for non-technical people to learn well enough to be useful in the majority of business settings. This sets up a kind of feedback loop: there is an abundant supply of "cheap" labor who can use these languages, which companies love,…

Alternate theory: "lousy" is a subjective measure, and those languages are popular because in many other peoples' subjective reality, they are not lousy. Just a theory though, by all means, keep thinking that languages are objectively ranked identically to your subjective ranking and anybody using ones at the bottom are just dumb dumbs who are incapable of using the ones at the top.

I didn't rank any languages. I made an observation that it is easier for non-technical people to pick up dynamically typed languages and be productive enough for use in many business cases than to pick up statically typed ones. That doesn't mean the dynamically typed ones are "easier" or "worse" than statically typed ones. It doesn't mean people who prefer them or learn programming with them are "dumb dumbs," either. There's a reason I put "lousy" in quotes and didn't flat out agree that they were, in fact, "lousy".

Seems to me that's a chip on your shoulder; not mine.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#144

Post by pron »

ebiester wrote: post #117
pron wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that much of your fantasy is already a reality. For example, look at how Dropwizard[1] assembled a best-of-breed collection of modern Java libraries into a small, yet very powerful, REST micro-framework. So the bits and pieces are certainly there, and even the JCP does good work sometimes (JAX-RS) that becomes good standard APIs with many different implementations. [1]: http://dropwizard.codahale.com/getting-…

Dropwizard is a bit heavy by Node standards. The health checks, in the NPM-style system, would be its own package. The configuration class would be its own package. Resources would be their own package. Liquibase or Freemarker wouldn't be built in, nor would JDBI. I think of Dropwizard much like express for node, and most of the "cool kids" in the node community think that that's just too much for a single library. I…

I'm sorry, I may have been misunderstood. I meant that Dropwizard exemplifies how you can pick and choose components, those atomic libraries, into a "framework" of your choosing. Dropwizard contains very little code. It's just an assembly of the parts you wished existed, and the proof that those parts already exist.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#145

Post by dustingetz »

zaphar wrote: post #30
ebiester wrote: post #28

I fantasize about rebuilding the java ecosystem. Create "JPM", don't allow anything from the old Maven system in it. Create a new "hip" minimalist framework that ignores everything about java and its notions of OOP. Basic dependency management handled NPM-style. Developers encourage to put everything in the same package for their own stuff, and everything is package level. Getters and setters and encapsulation and ja…

Java has always been a good language if you ignored the ecosystem. The ecosystem is a large part of what defines a language though. You have to take care in how you define that ecosystem. I sometimes wonder if Node.js is making mistakes in the opposite direction as Java with their ecosystem these days.

A language IS its ecosystem. In 2013 java is a good platform.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#146

Post by olavgg »

barrkel wrote: post #104
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your package system is inspired by Maven, minus a good build system and other functionalities. Try building a large C# projects with running unit-tests, integration-tests, packaging, code-coverage, code style baked into it, and a bunch of other plugins for your build systems without pulling your hair. Your DateTime library ain't there yet sir so you're pretty much at the same situation with Java (although both ecosys…

C# is Java with perhaps 200% syntax improvement. The things I use most often with e.g. Ruby - monadic collection operations like map, select, etc. - is there in the form of Linq, with select, where, etc. A concise, type-inferred lambda expression goes a long, long way. The .net ecosystem isn't as evolved as Java, for sure. But I don't think maven is a good implementation of a dependency management system either, nor…

Any language today that still requires to mark end of line with a semi colon, has in my opinion outdated syntax. Most people put one statement per line, so why is it required and not optional?

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#147

Post by _random_ »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #68
radicalbyte wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've basically described C#: Getters, setters fixed? Check. Functional features? Check. Most crappy OO features fixed? Check. Trendy package system inspired by npm/apt-get/gems? Check. Healthy community with libraries replacing frameworks? Check. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

Your package system is inspired by Maven, minus a good build system and other functionalities. Try building a large C# projects with running unit-tests, integration-tests, packaging, code-coverage, code style baked into it, and a bunch of other plugins for your build systems without pulling your hair. Your DateTime library ain't there yet sir so you're pretty much at the same situation with Java (although both ecosys…

We build those kind of projects and our team is successful with C#. Perhaps we just know a thing or two about decoupling on all levels. С# comes from the world that brought us Reactive Extensions and TPL. If you call runtime generics, continuations, dynamic typing and value types 10% syntax improvement, then perhaps you should grab a book or two and catch up a bit?

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#148

Post by penland »

mtrimpe wrote: post #89
ExpiredLink wrote: post #36

> Spring brings a lot of functionality to the table. Likely far too much functionality. Most people are moving away from the monolithic application and moving towards smaller more lightweight frameworks… It's high time to debunk Spring. In the name of 'Dependency Injection' many Java developers still create complex, monolithic and - first of all - untestable applications with this framework. In fact, Spring adds anot…

I'm pretty good with Spring and have even given trainings on it and I'd argue that Spring's main problem is that it needs to be seen in the right context: a poor man's DSL for declarative system configuration (it is last 10 years old after all.) That it creates untestable applications seems like completely nonsensical FUD however since the entire point of Spring is to keep code easily testable. Spring is an almost di…

I've done a lot of Spring side work and your first paragraph is the best explanation I've ever read for the framework.

I also agree that if you can't test Spring code you are doing something wrong. I get the frustration with having to create test harnesses for some things, and the SpringJ4Unit stuff oftentimes feels a bit too magical, but I've never seen well written Spring code that wasn't easily testable at the both the class and module functionality layer.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#149

Post by _random_ »

barrkel wrote: post #104
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your package system is inspired by Maven, minus a good build system and other functionalities. Try building a large C# projects with running unit-tests, integration-tests, packaging, code-coverage, code style baked into it, and a bunch of other plugins for your build systems without pulling your hair. Your DateTime library ain't there yet sir so you're pretty much at the same situation with Java (although both ecosys…

C# is Java with perhaps 200% syntax improvement. The things I use most often with e.g. Ruby - monadic collection operations like map, select, etc. - is there in the form of Linq, with select, where, etc. A concise, type-inferred lambda expression goes a long, long way. The .net ecosystem isn't as evolved as Java, for sure. But I don't think maven is a good implementation of a dependency management system either, nor…

And some languages don't check types for you before running the code and it's almost 2014 now, can you imagine?

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#150

Post by _random_ »

hansjorg wrote: post #97
radicalbyte wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've basically described C#: Getters, setters fixed? Check. Functional features? Check. Most crappy OO features fixed? Check. Trendy package system inspired by npm/apt-get/gems? Check. Healthy community with libraries replacing frameworks? Check. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

Except that between the two, only the JVM is truly cross platform, Mono notwithstanding.

Really? How can I use JVM on iOS? Is there a good toolchain for Java -> native iOS?
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