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End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

nytimes.com

141–150 of 176 posts

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a new FISA would be a good start. As flawed as the current state of affairs is, its a big improvement over what existed prior to FISA. That law was a constraint on the NSA, probably the most restrictive that was possible during the cold war. Alternatively, the Supreme Court could invent a right,of privacy out of thin air. That might very well happen in time, but the tech community is undermining attempts to l…

"To get to "its not okay for the government to read my email" you have to get rid of the notion that "its okay for Google to read my email." No, you don't. You opt-in to Google reading your mail by using their free service. You can't (easily) opt-out of the government reading everything you do. You have a choice with Google and any other private firm.

That's a viable argument, certainly. But for the Supreme Court to read into the Constitution a right that isn't plainly in the text (as it did with the right to abortion in Roe v. Wade),[1] it's not enough to just present a viable argument. You need the weight of social and academic consensus. You need the majority of people to firmly believe that something should be a new social norm.

In this context, the social norm you're trying to establish is that internet communications are to be kept private, even sacrosanct. The idea of someone reading their e-mail should give people the same feeling as the idea of someone looking into their bathroom window.

You can't rest such a social norm on fine distinctions between the government and private companies. Ordinary people do not hold the government in a unique position of mistrust, and so are not likely to find compelling a norm that only the government must observe. As soon as you say: "well, Google can read my e-mail because I can always choose to use a different provider," you open yourself up to the counter that "well, unlike Google the government has a unique obligation to protect us from terrorists, so it needs to be able to read our e-mail too!"

When it comes to the establishment of a new social norm, it's irrelevant that people are theoretically free to choose a provider that does not violate their privacy. As long as the vast majority of the popular services leverage private data, the social norm that will emerge is that online communications are not something that should be held sacrosanct. As long as people are conditioned to accept Googles' reading their e-mails to target advertising, they will not think of e-mail as a deeply private thing that must be protected, even from the government.

[1] Whether you think Roe v. Wade was correctly decided or not, it's hard to argue that the result was plainly in the text of the Constitution. In Griswold, Justice Douglas didn't rely on "penumbras" and "emanations" despite having clear Constitutional text to hang his hat on!

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a new FISA would be a good start. As flawed as the current state of affairs is, its a big improvement over what existed prior to FISA. That law was a constraint on the NSA, probably the most restrictive that was possible during the cold war. Alternatively, the Supreme Court could invent a right,of privacy out of thin air. That might very well happen in time, but the tech community is undermining attempts to l…

Alternatively, the Supreme Court could invent a right,of privacy out of thin air. Between the originalists and the existing problems with rights that have been found in the penumbrae of other rights, I cant see that happening. But then a consittutional amendment likely isn't on the cards any time soon either. (I'm tied up for the rest of the day and most of the week with family stuff, but have wanted to chat with you…

Sure.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#143
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion. We have a highly mixed economy now, not capitalism. If you consider large government bureaus (public, or "private" via regulation, like, say, Verizon) to define "capitalism" just because there are large amounts of money involved ("capital"), you are defining the term by non-essentials. There were also large amounts of money in the USSR. Capitalism lost because of Euro…

>>Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion Wrong. Capitalism is synonymous with free enterprise , not free markets. And free enterprise simply means that enterprises (rather than states) own the means of production.

Nope. Your definitions are contradictory.

There is no such thing as a "free enterprise" without a "free market", and vice versa.

To the degree you do not have a "free market," you have government regulation. To the degree you have government regulation, successful enterprises are organs of the state.

Free markets == free enterprise == capitalism. Why? Because they all just fall out of "the government only uses force to stop other people from initiating force and retaliating against them when they do," which is a proper government. And, as a sidenote, this is what the US Founding Fathers set up, to the closest extent they could.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion Wrong. Capitalism is synonymous with free enterprise , not free markets. And free enterprise simply means that enterprises (rather than states) own the means of production.

Agreed. We can definitly have unrestricted free markets with community owned syndicates and still be able to create tailored products and respond to demans. IMO, we need to start talking about workplace democracy if we're going to continue to entertain the idea of corporate controlled society, so that the common person can at least get their vote back (indirectly, by choosing who leads the company which bribes offici…

IMO, we need to stop having people control one another. There is no self-interested reason to do it, from anyone's point of view.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#145
post #81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion. We have a highly mixed economy now, not capitalism. If you consider large government bureaus (public, or "private" via regulation, like, say, Verizon) to define "capitalism" just because there are large amounts of money involved ("capital"), you are defining the term by non-essentials. There were also large amounts of money in the USSR. Capitalism lost because of Euro…

>> Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion I love how libertarians redefine words to mean what they want!

I'm not a libertarian. Libertarians have stolen 10% of Ayn Rand's philosophy, Objectivism, and taken it out of context. That is why they make no sense, intellectually. I am an Objectivist.

Capitalism and free markets just "fall out of" a government that does not coerce people, and does not allow people to coerce people.

I already provided some evidence that my account is proper. I mentioned the issue of improperly defining things by non-essentials. I don't think you have presented a viable counter-argument.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's a private agreement? I don't understand your point. You agree to pay a certain amount and if you don't a bad thing happens. When it's a bank and a mortgage, you lose your house and your family is harmed. When it's the government and taxes, your wages are garnished and your family is harmed. Having a banking system helps people buy houses and having a government helps literally everything a society does.

It's not your house, it's the bank's house. That's what a mortgage is.

You know, until it isn't.

http://4closurefraud.org/2010/07/20/bank-of-america-confisca...

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#147
post #118
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion I love how libertarians redefine words to mean what they want!

"Libertarians" are not a homogenous group. What he's referring to in mainstream libertarian literature is called "anarcho-capitalism". This is well known in the libertarian sub-culture. A distinction the above commenter likely just doesn't know yet. Very similar to how everyone seems to perceive socialism to be authoritarian-communism. Fallacies are everywhere, hardly unique to libertarians.

I am the accused know-nothing above commenter.

In fact, I know presiely what "anarcho-capitalism" is, and I totally reject it.

An actual system of freedom (which capitalism falls out of) requires people to be protected from the initiation of force by a government. Anarcho-capitalism is simply a power vacuum that will be filled (99% of the time, in a dangerous way).

Moreover, I am not a libertarian, I am an Objectivist (the philosophy the libertarians stole 10% of and started taking out of context when they started their modern movement).

To respond to your other point, the fundamental political axis is freedom on the one side, and authoritarianism on the other. It doesn't particularly matter if that is wrapped up as socialism, communism, fascism, or whatever.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#148

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

Framing the conversation as freedom vs safety is dangerous because it ignores the issue of government power. The danger of mass surveillance is not due to some abstract need for privacy, but rather because of the immense power the government has. The founding fathers acutely understood the dangers of government overreach, and the constitution of the USA was designed to keep it in check. However these days, the very p…

However these days, the very principles that the country was founded on are used as a shield to lull the well-fed and entertained population into a false sense of security about the benevolence of the government.

I don't think these principles are used as a shield, I think they have been redefined and given the euphemism of "national security" to hide what the new definitions are, if there even are definitions beyond 'whatever we want to do'.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#149
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet privacy becomes essential in the moment that people put their entire lives on the Internet. All mail is email, all financial transactions are electronic, medical records are in computers, credit scores are in data centers--- you name anything important to your privacy/freedom, and it's in the cloud these days. No tradeoff is possible anymore.

I keep saying it, the US Constitution needs amending to create an explicit right to privacy. government surveillance is a problem, but so is the unilateral exploitation of personal data for commercial purposes. I'm Irish and living in the States, I really miss the EU Data Protection Act.

anigbrowl "the US Constitution needs amending to create an explicit right to privacy"

Actually it shouldn't. U.S. Constitution, Amendment 9:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." [1]

If this had had a good-faith interpretation in US constitutional law, many decisions would have been more favorable to individual citizens.

It's not the words that are decisive, it's the cultural willingness to honor them.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_...

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#150
post #26

"Our first priority is to keep Americans safe from the threat of terrorism." There's the problem. Even by those protesting sweeping NSA collection, we're obsessed with this. When the axis powers threatened to plunge the world into 1000 years of darkness, the only thing we had to fear is fear itself, now - that's not good enough - we must fear the unending threat of terrorism. Letting the NSA run wild is a logical res…

"Our first priority is to keep Americans safe from the threat of terrorism."

Maybe naively, but I would have imagined foreign policy reforms would be more effective, whilst eliminating the need for intrusive security.

Treating the symptom rather than the disease when the treatment is more harmful does not seem rational.

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