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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

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Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#141

Post by vidarh »

omonra wrote: post #135
donquichotte wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of the great American tragedies is to have participated in a just war." Kurt Vonnegut

I'd say US has a petty good record in the 20th century: WWI WWII Cold War All won. And for the latter two (I personally think Germany losing WWI was the worst thing that happened to Europe), I am 100% on the side of the US (particular tactics notwithstanding).

I don't know what you are trying to say. It sounds like you've missed the point of the quote, which is understandable as it's not very transparent from that one sentence. To put the Vonnegut quote in fuller context:

"One of the great American tragedies is to have participated in a just war. It’s been possible for politicians and movie-makers to encourage us we’re always good guys. The Second World War absolutely had to be fought. I wouldn’t have missed it for the world. But we never talk about the people we kill. This is never spoken of."

The point of the quote is that the US participation in just wars like WWII has given the US government a free pass in a vast number of other conflicts where it's behaviour has been shameful, as well as when it comes to the behaviour in specific instances in just wars. And this has happened to a great extent with the intelligence agencies too.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#142

Post by vidarh »

adeptus wrote: post #21

On the "is not monitoring and will not monitor"... If they took the time to deny present and future monitoring, the obvious question then becomes why haven't they denied past/recent past monitoring? Oh that's right, because they can't in fact deny it as they WERE monitoring.

Personally, I think it is misdirection. Why should we assume they are not willing to lie? More likely, in my opinion, is that they deny the present and future to make us think it used to happen, but just maybe might have stopped. Is there really any reason to assume they've stopped?

I mean, if they're not capable of lying convincingly, they'd make pretty shitty spies.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#143

Post by timje1 »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #116
ceejayoz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany is not plotting against the United States. What scenario would they use info for? Being certain that Germany is not plotting against the United States, I'd guess.

The US doesn't need to spy on the German chancellor to be certain of this. There is no conceivable plot that Germany could be involved in that could damage the US, and both countries know this. Same with the UK, Israel, France, etc.

The EU doesn't import US beef because of banned chemicals used to raise US cows. Imagine if the EU implemented more stringent requirements on, say, GM foods. Or other livestock. Banned the pesticides used in California Oranges, etc.

Trade agreements, tariffs, standards and sanctions - there are many ways for European countries to damage the US economically.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#144

Post by 7952 »

mythz wrote: post #101
r00fus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big question is, who controls this security state? The information is being collected, but who's the audience? And what is their agenda?

Information is power and power is money. They can use it to protect themselves and control high-ranking officials to ensure, for instance, that they will always be well-founded to be able to continue unfettered in their mission to acquire even more information and power.

The scary thing is that they would not have any leverage on people who have no skeletons in the cupboard. A morally "clean" president may shut them down. In a twisted way it would be in their interest to see bad people in power.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#145

Post by prof_hobart »

guscost wrote: post #66
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

To quote, er, myself: "What does the NSA even do if not this?" http://guscost.com/2013/06/27/nsa-snoops/

Spy on people they believe are enemies, rather than allies or innocent bystanders?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#146

Post by prof_hobart »

junto wrote: post #123
krapp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Guardian is just trying to ride the NSA gravy train at this point.

I disagree. Within the UK, the general public has not favored the Guardian's reporting on the Snowden-NSA files. Many see it as anti-British and the much of the rest of the press has taken the government's side - quoting the government line concerning the protection of the country against terrorism and pedophiles. What little the Guardian has been allowed to report (outside the D-Notice that covers GCHQ coverage) has…

> Within the UK, the general public has not favored the Guardian's reporting on the Snowden-NSA files. Many see it as anti-British

Apologies if I've missed it somewhere in your post, but where are you getting this from?

Much of the rest of the press is, rather strangely given their seemingly life-or-death battle to defend their right to print celebrity tittle-tattle, mostly siding with the government on this. But I'm not seeing a groundswell of public opinion supporting that view.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#147

Post by znowi »

frank_boyd wrote: post #99
r00fus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big question is, who controls this security state? The information is being collected, but who's the audience? And what is their agenda?

Rule number 1: It's ALWAYS about the money. The agenda is the protection of excessive money/wealth. Which tells you where to look for "who's behind it": Rich people, very rich people. Also: The military-industrial complex. And I honestly don't know how one can take down such a power structure that's in such an advanced stage. I think it's like terminal cancer: it will only die when the host dies.

> And I honestly don't know how one can take down such a power structure that's in such an advanced stage.

Revolution would work. Except, most Americans are living rather comfortable lives, despite all the surveillance uproar. As you keenly noted - it's always about the money (including the American Revolution). So as long as common folk gets their bone from the elite - they will happily wag their tails.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#148

Post by bnegreve »

ceejayoz wrote: post #63
conductor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we are not at war with everyone, and those countries involved (like Germany, France and Italy) are our partners, economical and military partners. I can accept doing SIGINT on non-friendly countries and organizations but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

Germany and France do it to us. They're likely just not as talented at it. One way nation states stay allies is knowing, at least to some level, that the public statements match the private. http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarc...

Still, as a US citizen you should be upset because the NSA went way too far and got caught.

Non-US citizen (inc. me) are just upset because they've been spied on. That's quite reasonable.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#149

Post by ttt_ »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

>> Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications?

Your statement seems to equate "it's usual to spy" with "it's alright to spy". Spying on close allies only pays off if you are not caught. It's risky to do it and I expect each Nation State weights that in when deciding to do it or not. If the Germans do try to spy on US and they get caught, there will be fallout on relations.

The US got caught spying on several allies. They took the risk. There will be repercussions on diplomatic relations. There will be repercussions on public image and trust.

Apparently from the leaked memo, the intelligence gained didn't really pay off this time around, and since they got caught, all they did was break the trust.

Was it a good trade off?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#150

Post by cmdkeen »

conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The FBI did this for decades - Hoover's level of corruption is truly scary. He had dirt on every incoming US President and most representatives for years, and would offer to help his chosen candidate during the election cycle.

But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures.

As for them spying on foreigners - so what? It's been common knowledge for years that Western countries spy on each other, Echelon demonstrated that electronic means were being used to. The British ran a mole inside the German finance ministry for years - unsurprising when you consider the damage Black Wednesday did to the British economy.

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