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On being the right size (1928)

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Re: On being the right size (1928)

#141
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets "decide" what is best by responding to price signals. If you buy a cheap T-shirt then you are saying to the market that you value low price over an ethical supply chain. Buyers from first world countries do not (in general) deal first-hand with the labourers, they deal with factory owners who have the capital equipment necessary to do the manufacturing at the required scale. All the while that there is price…

Let me respond to your final paragraph first. I actually don't agree with the idea that people should "act more responsibly" and "choose" to get educated. Or rather, I think they are never given the choice. Children working are forced to do so by the poverty of the parent, who were in turn forced into their life path by poverty. Of course this is not always the case, but what I have seen indicates that economic pover…

You've said quite a lot, so please forgive me in advance for any lack of coherence.

I would be slightly wary of making predictions from historical trends, because we don't have a very large sample size, and there are a lot of confounding factors, a good example being cultural differences between countries, by which I mean differences in social organisation rather than what clothes people wear.

Irrespective of those differences, the general idea of an increase in skill level with continued investment has both common sense and, as far as I am aware, theoretical appeal. The issue, however, is really one of degree, and that is important for people at the hard edge of poverty. Whether it is going to take 1, 10, or 100 years for the conditions in a given region to improve matters to people who have so little money to live on that they can't afford to send their children to school, or pay for proper housing. If there is no money left over for workers to improve their lot because they are living at subsistence level, which is distressingly common, then the development process you describe cannot take place.

Distorting the free market in order to temporarily redistribute wealth downwards, with the goal of speeding up the process of improvement, is in my view an ethical action. An example of the kind of distortion that I think could be appropriate is supporting an oversight organisation along the lines of the Forest Stewardship Council. Bodies like that are by no means perfect, and are themselves often subject to market pressures, however they seem to me to be a pretty good balance of economic freedom and social ethics.

A slight aside; it strikes me that a not insignificant proportion of the increase in wealth that we enjoy has come not from people being able to afford more of everything, but rather from technological progress in methods of producing things. So for example the desk on which my computer sits is a fairly cheap affair constructed from what looks to me like veneered MDF. I do not have a nice oak writing desk, because those are still very expensive. The same kind of comparison applies to almost everything I own that has a historical counterpart: food, clothing, furniture, writing materials.

My point is that my increased "apparent" wealth seems to be driven as much by these technical improvements as by an increase in "actual" wealth (I wouldn't dare guess the actual ratio beyond saying that I feel the factors are comparable). Furthermore, I am confident in saying that technological improvement is not predicated on market freedom on the basis that there have, historically, been civilisations who have undergone technological improvement without free markets: the Romans being one example amongst many. I would also point out that we don't have enough data to know whether the current burst of technological improvement was dependent in any way on market freedom, because we only really have one data point: this particular rise of standards.

To return to your question about an ethical supplier: it kind of depends on your taste. My partner is Indian and I seem to end up getting my clothes on visits there these days, mostly as a result of laziness whilst here. Fabindia is one supplier that seems to put quite a lot of effort into ensuring good conditions in their supply chain, though they don't have the range you'd expect from a western supplier (they do seem to ship internationally though, not sure about stores). There are lots of workers cooperatives in Kerala, where my partner is from, so all the stuff they make must get on to the market somehow! Also, I don't know if you're aware but somewhat coincidentally NPR's Planet Money are doing a series of podcasts and associated things on t-shirts, and the economics of the global t-shirt trade, that sounds like it's going to be quite interesting.

Sorry for the long post :-|

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#142
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it seems to me to be a pretty desirable state of affairs." Oh I wouldn't put it that way... One interesting issue/analogy is a lot of lawyers (labor lawyers?) won't take conflict of interest jobs where they financially benefit if their client loses / opponent wins. Too much opportunity for malpractice motive, or appearance of it anyway. If you take it out of labor law, as an analogy, say you were suing a company, yo…

While there may be divergent goals between stock holders and employees I think it's incorrect to call all but the worst of them "Conflicts of Interest" (pump and dump situations maybe?). Both the employees and the stockholders rely on their business being successful. as I posted in another comment: "I think it's important to consider the rights of the owner as well. If I am a captain on a fishing boat, and I built/pa…

The captain is perfectly free to do what he wants how he wants with his property, the boat. His boat is useless without crew. The fishermen crew are not his owned slaves (although there are people working to fix that in the USA in all but name) and if he insists on sailing into hurricanes and killing half the crew, or not providing food/water/fair pay, they're perfectly free to raise hell and refuse to work and encourage everyone else not to work until the captain agrees to reasonable demands. He owns the ship, not the crew. If the captain says "I'm going to be a bit reckless and kill half the crew and pay the other half so low their family starves, but I will make an extra 10%, so you'll like it"... well, no, they won't.

The fisherman can't build their own boat because the captains have added enough rules and regs and .gov payoffs and what boil down to bribes in an effort to reduce competition. Its not a free market and the captains like it that way. No surprise there's a wee bit of backlash. If the captains don't like backlash, try not being a crook, then start complaining.

BTW its OK if the captain is pissed off about people "stealing" his capital even if they aren't. To a first approximation a fair and reasonable deal doesn't require everyone to be perfectly happy, just more or less equally unhappy. I'm sure the union fishermen are about equally pissed off at the captain, seeing as he kills about 2% of them annually by being cheap/risky and half of all captains are of course below the median thus they're jerks to work for.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not know many typical mcdonalds employees. How many do you think are college educated (let alone educated in the right areas) or even possess a GED? Compared to http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/boa... Sure education isn't everything. The average mcds employee is a good person trying to earn an honest living fit to have a beer with but probably not the best source of sound investment a…

The argument you are making is equivalent to arguing that dictatorship is better than democracy because regular people are too stupid to decide for themselves.

No... If I own something I should get to decide how I use it. To deny me that would be to deny me my private property. Owners have rights to their property. If the employees at my business owned voting stock, that would be different and a vote would be appropriate.

Lets use the fishing boat analogy. So a fisherman fishes for 10 years saving his pennies and investing and builds a fishing boat with his bare hands. He (The captain) then hires 3 hands to help him run the fishing boat. If everything simply came down to a vote there would be no incentive for the captain to save for 10 years and build a boat.

If the 4 fishermen had all saved their money together, and pooled their resources to build the boat equally, then they could have equal say in how the fishing operation is run.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mostly agree with your points, but this one fails. I say there's a pyramid. You say thats a politically incorrect concept to think about from a psuedo-right perspective, therefore it surely doesn't exist and all topic change-y. Bzzt try again. Is there or is there not a pyramid of skills, and if a working definition of the level of civilization is looking at how the downtrodden are treated, what are you proposing…

You keep repeating that socialism doesn't work. In the period 1928 - 1934 the socialist USSR went from an agrarian country, devastated by wars to world's second industrial power. Sent the first satellite into space, first man, first space station. To this date the socialist build russian space industry is the best in the world. USSR has made a huge amount of contributions in science as well. Other socialist countries…

It doesn't work in terms of making live of a regular person better. Your argument is akin to saying North Korea is a better place to live than Germany because North Korea can put satellites on the orbits and develop nuclear weapons. Surely it must be more advanced! In some ways, I'm sure it is, but my question to you is this: at what cost? 30 milion dead to indutrialize USSR. That was the cost. In communism individual is nothing. They will sacrifice millions on the alter of having this industrialization done.

Bulgaria example: all satellite countries in the soviet block, and I underline again all of them, were developing more slowly and had much, much worse living conditions than their Western counter-parts at all time from 1945 forwards. Just compare Eastern to Western Germany. So, don't rewrite history, communism was one that made people sick of the poverty and revolt in Eastern Europe.

On the other hand, I agree with you, that post 1989 Eastern Europe is developing slower than we would have hoped for. However, in mu humble opinion, and that's just opinion, this is because of following still socialism. Free housing, free healthcare, free this and that. People in Eastern Europe live in socialist not capitalist states. Moreover, more often than not, the "capitalization" process done by "liberals" in Eastern Europe was just simply stealing the whole industries by ex-communistic elites together with guys who are currently in power. These are very corrupt states. I like to compare my own country - Poland - to Mexico. You know Mexico has had "capitalism" for a long time. But it is not a real capitalism. People there believe in free stuff, they vote for free stuff, and they don't like or trust free market economy. This causes corruption which in turn makes them permanently poor. I think Eastern Europe is a bit like Latin America. They don't have true capitalism but some kind of a corrupt states that just failed. Adding EU socialism on top of that kind of pushes things in the right direction in my opinion - from post-communistic mentality towards more modern, western, socialists - but it is still socialism.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mostly agree with your points, but this one fails. I say there's a pyramid. You say thats a politically incorrect concept to think about from a psuedo-right perspective, therefore it surely doesn't exist and all topic change-y. Bzzt try again. Is there or is there not a pyramid of skills, and if a working definition of the level of civilization is looking at how the downtrodden are treated, what are you proposing…

You keep repeating that socialism doesn't work. In the period 1928 - 1934 the socialist USSR went from an agrarian country, devastated by wars to world's second industrial power. Sent the first satellite into space, first man, first space station. To this date the socialist build russian space industry is the best in the world. USSR has made a huge amount of contributions in science as well. Other socialist countries…

[deleted]

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#146
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't undermine my argument. I said they compete on quality. Unions can be just as tyrannical as a monopoly. If German companies didn't produce better cars than cheaper countries there would be no reason to buy them and very few people would. Added to my above comment: "For clarification sake I'm saying that the mass of people at the bottom of an organization can have demands that conflict with the survival of t…

The problem with this is, that the demands, that can destroy a company, still can be real demands. The company says, it has to pay you $5 per hour or they couldn't employ you and it isn't even lying. You say, you can't work for a wage below $10 per hour and your reasons for this are valid, too. If the company wins, the workers can't live from their wage. If the workers win, the company can't employ enough of them to…

> The company says, it has to pay you $5 per hour or they couldn't employ you and it isn't even lying. You say, you can't work for a wage below $10 per hour and your reasons for this are valid, too.

The price of labor just like any other price in the free market economy is determined by supply & demand. So they need you for $5/hour. You know you are worth (i.e. can easily get) the same job for $10/hour. The capitalistic/free market way of this to work out is that you go working for 10usd/hour this way rewarding competent guys who can built cars with profit to pay you your rate and at the same time penalizing incompetent company that can't build cars with profit. At the end this means the incompetent company should go bankrupt and resources it was holding hostage - workers, machinery, real estate, steel that they used, etc, etc. can be bought on cheap via bankruptcy process by competent companies that will put all of that to better use.

That's actually what should happen in 2008 with the banks. The incompetent banks that were lending all this risky money to guys without checking if they can ever repay, should go bankrupt - Citi, GoldMan, you name it. Then via baknruptcy process they would free up a lot of workforce, a lot of bank branches, office space, etc. to be bought by competent banks on the cheap (it's bankruptcy after all) and put it all to better use. 3/4th bank from Ohio - its CEO - knew about the housing bubble in advance. He was cautious. If we allowed the market forces to work he - a competent banker - would be the one who would buy on cheap / take over assets of incompetent morons like Paulson ex-CEO from Goldman. That's how free market economy works. This transition period - when people loose their jobs, etc due to incompetent morons CEOs - is horrible. But the things get reassigned and after some time people find work at competent banks that make sense. Instead, we got Paulson and other incompetent loosers convince the Government that they - incompetent CEOs - should be bailed out by tax-money. They told a few fairies about the end of the world that will happen for sure if they go bankrupt. The same was repeated by politicians and TV talking heads. And here we go - competent banker is taxed to pay to incompetent bankers do they can do the same mistakes all over again. Just one thing - please don't call this motrosity capitalism. It isn't.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument you are making is equivalent to arguing that dictatorship is better than democracy because regular people are too stupid to decide for themselves.

No... If I own something I should get to decide how I use it. To deny me that would be to deny me my private property. Owners have rights to their property. If the employees at my business owned voting stock, that would be different and a vote would be appropriate. Lets use the fishing boat analogy. So a fisherman fishes for 10 years saving his pennies and investing and builds a fishing boat with his bare hands. He (…

Fine, but that is not relevant to the question about who would provide the most incompetent leadership.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#148
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UAW was forced into being vested in Chrysler and GM as a condition of the bailout, and it's a condition that they fought tooth and nail.

Interesting. Apologies for not taking the time to do the research myself, but do you have any idea why they were so reluctant to take a stake in the companies that (I presume) their members work in?

Chrysler has been circling the drain for decades and GM isn't too far behind. Why own stock in them when you can just drain them of their remaining wealth?

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#149
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is, that the demands, that can destroy a company, still can be real demands. The company says, it has to pay you $5 per hour or they couldn't employ you and it isn't even lying. You say, you can't work for a wage below $10 per hour and your reasons for this are valid, too. If the company wins, the workers can't live from their wage. If the workers win, the company can't employ enough of them to…

> The company says, it has to pay you $5 per hour or they couldn't employ you and it isn't even lying. You say, you can't work for a wage below $10 per hour and your reasons for this are valid, too. The price of labor just like any other price in the free market economy is determined by supply & demand. So they need you for $5/hour. You know you are worth (i.e. can easily get) the same job for $10/hour. The capitalis…

I call it corporate socialism.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The company says, it has to pay you $5 per hour or they couldn't employ you and it isn't even lying. You say, you can't work for a wage below $10 per hour and your reasons for this are valid, too. The price of labor just like any other price in the free market economy is determined by supply & demand. So they need you for $5/hour. You know you are worth (i.e. can easily get) the same job for $10/hour. The capitalis…

I call it corporate socialism.

when rich pay taxes to support poor - socialism. when poor pay taxes to support rich - feudalism.

The monster that is emerging its head worldwide is neo-feudalism, not socialism or capitalism. That's why political parties, or political ideologies lost sense and touch with reality some time ago. They try to explain the world that they have no tools to explain - feudal world.

feudalism was destroyed by capitalistic revolution (French revolution) which in turn was questioned (not destroyed) by socialist revolution called Bolshevik revolution. The cycle begins from the start again, next in turn in morphed feudalism. And this system is to be addressed by the values of the French Revolution AND Capitalistic Ideology. Socialist world of politics that we live in has no good answers to the threat of neo-feudalism. The answer to neo-feudalism is in capitalism.

Just saying. Would love to see a Revolution with people reovolting against their feudal masters (the 1%).

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