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E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

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Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#141

Post by diminoten »

alexqgb wrote: post #137
diminoten wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally? No, there's no such idea as, "anonymous in public", and no, someone recording you in public isn't harassment. Ask celebrities. The paparazzi get in trouble when they enter into private spaces, but public spaces? Fair game. Always. And what exactly is your moral argument against it? That your public movements would incriminate you somehow? That's a slippery slope argument - there's no connection between track…

The moral arguments against it are profound: put simply human liberty and constant mass surveillance are mutually incompatible. There is a deep and rich body of literature, philosophy, research, and direct human experience to back this up. I am truly sorry that you appear to be completely unfamiliar with any of it. If you have a sincere interest in the subject, you can start with the most widely recognized point of r…

1984 is a work of fiction and has no bearable application on the world of today, and furthermore there is no philosophical literature dealing with being monitored while in PUBLIC. This isn't about privacy when you're in a place no one else is, this is about how incredibly naive it is to think when you're in public, no one's allowed to look at you.

Do not transform this into a privacy debate, because I'm not saying you don't deserve privacy. Don't ruin this discussion by getting all fanatical on me...

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#142

Post by jlgreco »

diminoten wrote: post #132
RHSeeger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the recent revelations that they "do" does mean they "do".

What revelations that they do? So far all revelations have been surveillance related, and not arrest and conviction related. No one's been provably put to jail because of the NSA's programs.

I guess you were asleep during the "parallel construction" revelations.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#143

Post by mixmastamyk »

diminoten wrote: post #44
forgotAgain wrote: post #37

I have to disagree with those who say this isn't news. It was news to me and will, I believe, be news to most others as well. The only time before this that I heard about using EZ pass for anything other than tolls was a few years ago when I read about some feasibility work on the concept of traffic flow optimization being done around Ithaca, NY. I do wonder why they haven't been used yet to track speeding violations…

Why are you against having your car tracked? You're in public, aren't you? Why do you think you have a right to privacy in public?

Interesting question. However, I think you've got it backwards. What right does the government have to track individuals? That's what we should be asking.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#144

Post by mixmastamyk »

dsl wrote: post #16
oceanstone wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FastTrak (used in the SF Bay Area) have a warning, laying this out when you buy the devices. You don't actually need the device though, as each bridge using it also uses cameras to read license plates. It's more convenient this way, as you just need to register your vehicle on their website.

I don't keep plates on my car because of the abundance of plate tracking applications in use by the government and private companies.

And how does one do that?

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#145

Post by cdcarter »

NoPiece wrote: post #119
marssaxman wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove across the Golden Gate Bridge a few months ago with no idea that this was going to happen - last time I was down there, they still had a normal tollbooth. I was in a borrowed car with Washington plates. If they'd had a normal toll booth I'd have paid, but with the system set up the way it was, I don't think they had any way to get revenue out of me.

I was also very confused the first time a drove across without the toll collectors. It felt like I was doing something wrong, and was going to end getting a ticket. Do you know if the person you borrowed the car from got a bill? I'm curious if they are only able to bill California plates, or they have a national database of license plates.

At least the Port Mann Bridge in Vancouver, which uses the same license plate camera only style billing, has a database which they use to send a bill to your insurance.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#146

Post by toomuchtodo »

diminoten wrote: post #131
forgotAgain wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the parent post genuinely concerned about? For myself, nothing. I have to say I lead a rather mundane life. My objection is not for myself, it's for others. I don't want reporters tracked. I don't want whistleblowers tracked. I don't want government employees to feel threatened they may lose their jobs because they have a private life. For those people to be safe we all have to be protected from government tr…

This isn't an argument against privacy, this is an argument against absolute privacy. You're not private all the time . Stop pretending like you are, it just doesn't mesh with reality. I can fucking see you walk into that night club, you did that in full view of the whole world.

Yet, here we are, without a system in place where that data can be queried in seconds in a programatic way, stored perpetually.

As it should be.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#147

Post by jack-r-abbit »

alexqgb wrote: post #139
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what would happen if any of the countless people you pass by daily decided to follow your every step, stalking you, recording everything you say and do, waiting for you in the street when you got home, then relentlessly pursuing you again when you leave. I'm pretty sure what you just described there is exactly what paparazzi do. I don't believe any have been arrested for doing that . (Mind you, if they do get arres…

That's very much a special case, and one that effects a microscopic portion of the population. Were that level of harassment to become part of daily life as lived by millions, the presently tentative efforts to rein them legally in would become very serious, very quickly.

But that isn't a special case because of law. It is only special because only a microscopic portion of the population is that popular with the rest of the population. People don't do this to me because no one is buying those pictures and putting them in magazines... not because some laws give me extra privacy.

You asked what would happen. The answer is the same for me as it is for Jay-Z or Tom Hanks: Nothing.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#148

Post by anigbrowl »

coldtea wrote: post #114
oakwhiz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all antistatic bags seem to block RF. You might want to double check yours, or consider upgrading to tinfoil.

Tinfoil as sarcasm would have made sense if what he feared (the extra tracking) was NOT happening. You know, like we used to mock people fearing aliens reading their mind and such. Yet, this very news proves that it DOES happen. So not only was the sarcasm misplaced, but he is in the right. Sure, one might believe that "well, a little tracking never hurt nobody" but that's another matter altogether.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#149

Post by jorgem »

mrud wrote: post #98
IgorPartola wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speeding cameras and other ways to ticket people automatically are problematic in the US. See, in Europe, the ticket can be given to the owner of the car. The problem is simple: take a picture of the license plate, look up the owner, send ticket. In the US, the law says that the only person that gets the ticket is the driver which != owner in a lot of cases. Because of this, places that have speeding cameras have to…

It depends in Europe. In some countries, e.g. Germany it is like in the US, e.g. you can contest a ticket and say that the driver was a relative from another country. You can also say that you weren't the driver but you don't know who used your car. In this case you typically are forced to keep a drivers log for this vehicle for the future.

>> In this case you typically are forced to keep a drivers log for this vehicle for the future.

Really?? You're found not-guilty, but you are still punished?

Re: E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)

#150

Post by alexqgb »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #147
alexqgb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very much a special case, and one that effects a microscopic portion of the population. Were that level of harassment to become part of daily life as lived by millions, the presently tentative efforts to rein them legally in would become very serious, very quickly.

But that isn't a special case because of law. It is only special because only a microscopic portion of the population is that popular with the rest of the population. People don't do this to me because no one is buying those pictures and putting them in magazines... not because some laws give me extra privacy. You asked what would happen. The answer is the same for me as it is for Jay-Z or Tom Hanks: Nothing.

That was actually my point, the law hasn't responded to paparazzi in a major way because they effect so few people. Or rather, it hadn't responded until relatively recently. California has found that the swarms are so big, and behave with such reckless disregard for public safety (high-speed chases on freeways are as especially sore point) that they've started to drop the hammer on these fuckers, passing legislation to curb the worst abuses.

Putting this special case aside, if you were to stalk someone in ways that many 'regular' people are actually exposed to, you'd find yourself face to face with a more fully developed - and far more serious - body of legislation.

http://suite101.com/a/stalking-law-a29952

The larger point is that a few people suffering the paps are not a threat to the republic. But if everyone had cause to live their lives in the fearful, guarded, anxious way that a lot of stars actually live (minus the giant paychecks, of course) then it's likely that society really would break down, and we'd see that "the reasonable expectation of privacy" isn't determined by what's technically possible at any given time, but what's psychologically necessary for people to function in and as a democracy.

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