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On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

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Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#141

Post by AutoCorrect »

api wrote: post #135
cnorgate wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with Zeteo's assessment - only thing I would add is that people shouldn't assume someone else'e job is 'bullshit' simply because they can't directly see or appreciate the value it creates. For example: in the case of corporate leadership, it is easy and appealing to suggest they aren't creating any direct value... i.e. fire the leadership and 'widgets' will still get made. The problem with this thinking…

Bullshit jobs certainly exist, and in great numbers. The proof is in the fact that many of the people who "do" these jobs actually goof off a significant part of their working day and yet things still march on as if nothing is different. In places I've done contracting work I've seen vast offices full of these folks, and it almost feels to me as if their bosses are sort of covering for them. Cubes full of people brow…

or hacker news

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#142

Post by api »

"Silicon Valley" (as a euphamism for our industry) has a chance to lead the culture here, and also to respond to an emerging criticism of itself in a way that is socially positive.

I'm seeing more and more articles to the effect that high-tech destroys jobs. Our response should be: "good, now we should move to a four-day work week." If high-tech work destroys jobs, it should leave people more time for friendship, family, art, learning, play, ...

Attack the Puritan bullshit-work ethic and the associated economic broken window fallacy directly. Make it a "culture war" issue if necessary.

That would be the first step: a four-day work week, a three-day weekend. More jobs for those who don't have them, less work for those who do. The energy savings in transportation would also be immense.

Tech industries would be largely unaffected. Why? Because our work is largely intellectual in nature, and intellectual work does not come in continuous streams. It comes in bursts of productivity. I bet removing one day from the work week would negligibly impact productivity in our field. It might even increase it in some cases.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#143

Post by fab13n »

mixmax wrote: post #49
RyanZAG wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're discounting that most people really don't want to live on a boat. An alternative is living in the countryside, but most people don't want to live there either. It's not just materialism or a status symbol at play here, but the preferences of the majority of society pushing people into zero-sum. If people suddenly decided that living on a boat isn't that bad (not going to happen), then the price of dock…

From anecdotal evidence I don't think you're right. Every summer I speak to an average of three strangers a week that stroll by the harbour and ask about how to get a space, how to buy a boat, and how they can go about doing it. But very few people take the plunge. When I tell people how I live most of them are envious (some think I'm crazy too). I think what's keeping people from doing it is fear. Most people don't…

I also live on a boat, in France, and the pressure on mooring places is unbearable in many places, including all of those conveniently close to "good" jobs. This is worsened by the waterways administration's Kafka-like madness. For instance, a boat which has mooring rights in Paris will cost about €600K more than the same one in an unremarkable place (mooring rights are effectively attached to a boat, and non-transferable).

So more extensive evidence shows that when living in a boat becomes popular, prices (in money and inconveniences) do skyrocket.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#144

Post by api »

AutoCorrect wrote: post #141
api wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit jobs certainly exist, and in great numbers. The proof is in the fact that many of the people who "do" these jobs actually goof off a significant part of their working day and yet things still march on as if nothing is different. In places I've done contracting work I've seen vast offices full of these folks, and it almost feels to me as if their bosses are sort of covering for them. Cubes full of people brow…

or hacker news

Shut down the site. You win.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#145

Post by twistedpair »

jonnathanson wrote: post #111

We need to distinguish between two separate, tangentially related issues: bullshit jobs and bullshit hours . Most of the classes of jobs mentioned in this piece are not, in and of themselves, entirely bullshit. Rather, the idea that each of these people actually needs to be in the office, pretending to be continually and evenly busy, for 50+ hours a week -- that's bullshit. Work ebbs and flows in a very different way…

But then how do we organize the productive capacity? We need the course bins to blindly assign human "resources" to, otherwise we'd need to recognize the heterogeneity of the positions and people that fill them. Do you want the IT support techs in the office 60 hours a week and the managers for just 20 hours a week?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#146

Post by api »

conjectures wrote: post #112
mbesto wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on! Or as Seth Godin puts it:[0] > Attention is a bit like real estate, in that they're not making any more of it. Unlike real estate, though, it keeps going up in value. [0]- http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2011/07/paying-atten...

Except that the world population is increasing (more of us), proportionally fewer people live in grinding poverty (more time) and more of us have access to diverse communications technology (more access). Seems to me attention isn't much like real estate.

It is within mature markets. It is orders of magnitude more difficult for an American firm -- especially a small one -- to market in South America or Asia due to language and culture barriers.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#147

Post by pge »

In addition to the factors described in the article, in the United States there is an additional and very real incentive to work "bullshit jobs" and that is that health insurance is tied to employment (far less expensive when purchase through or by your employer). Unexpected healthcare costs are one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy, so this creates an unnecessary incentive to have a job.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#148

Post by samatman »

Not surprised that the top four comments at the moment disagree with the author. I strongly recommend that anyone who was affected by the 2008 economic crisis read his best-known book: Debt, the first 5000 years.

You may still disagree with his conclusions, but you're more likely to do so in an informed way. It is the only treatise on the subject of debt, which I have been able to find, that actually makes sense. I say that as someone who has read far more Hayek and Rothbard than Marx or Bakunin.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#149

Post by keithpeter »

Filligree wrote: post #3

Some of what people want is positive-sum: Books, aquariums, theater showings, even cars. As we get more productive, the amount of time you need to work for these decreases. A lot of what people want is zero-sum: Location, status symbols, and so forth. If you want to live in the centre of town you need to work more than anyone else who so wants, not just as much as it takes to cover the maintenance. This is, I believe…

I like the positive/zero sum analysis. Alas, in the UK, living near a viable job is actually regarded as sum positive!

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#150

Post by chernevik »

spindritf wrote: post #96

I liked the article but there is no conundrum here: > the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people Yes, people are not paid in accordance to the direct tangible benefit their work brings. Salaries are broadly determined by the same laws of supply and demand that determine prices for other stuff. Tube workers are not…

The productivity of London tube workers results from their work on an enormous and unique capital asset.
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