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The Massachusetts Software Tax

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Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#141

Post by lmm »

yason wrote: post #123
pc86 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a foregone conclusion that states and other governments must increase taxes. If there's less money to go around, they could always spend less money. I'm not trying to make a political point, but there are certain states where the knee-jerk reaction is all too often to increase taxes - or to tax unpopular things like cigarettes - rather than take a look at the budget and see if there's a middle ground.

Simply increasing taxes will educate the decision makers about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve eventually. Taxing spending on harmful things is better than to tax work and activities because what you tax will diminish.

My country had a top tax rate of 85% at one point (with a 10% premium for unearned income). Society didn't collapse; in fact many of us remember that as a golden age.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#142

Post by thecodeore »

rwl wrote: post #96
thecodeore wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer to pay for services I use then to have the money stolen from me by force while people pretend it is moral because it is called "taxes"

OK, you're trolling here, and if I could downvote you for it, I would; but since I can't, let me try to raise the level of discussion: > I would prefer to pay for services I use I invite you, sometime, to think about which services you really use, and try to figure out how much it would cost to purchase each of them if you were doing so on your own. Don't forget: police protection, fire protection, military protectio…

I do not believe, support, or accept "democracy" or mob rule. I do not believe the "majority" has the moral right to lay claim to my labor or the product there of, nor tell me how to live my life. I believe in Non-Aggression Principle and the voluntary exchange of goods and services

You are correct in I do not exist in an island, however I do VOLUNTARILY exchange my labor for goods and services, this is society, not the immoral democratic structure you call "government". Government is a vile, evil entity that seeks to destroy society not build upon it.

>police protection,

Police are not today, and never have been a protectionarly unit, you can not cite any case law, or evidence to support that belief, if they were there would not be the need for self defense, private security, and entire industry producing goods and services for protecting one's self

Police are a Harassment and control mechanism for the state to force arbitrary laws and regulations passed by special interests, the majority or other such groups. They are nothing more than a gang of thugs.

>fire protection,

Historically Fire Protection was provided quite well and for a much lower cost privately, infact come counties are going back to that model.

Today I live in a Region with a 100% VOLUNTEER fire protection services that is supported by VOLUNTARY DONATIONS by the community, instead of violent forced collections. Our fire services is the best in the region with faster response times then the surrounding areas where they are paid to sit on their asses all day with money stolen from the community.

>military protection,

Most of the Military Budget today is used for Unjust and immoral wars, and immoral surveillance. I, just as our founders, do not believe in a Standing Army.

>paved roads,

A good % of roads are PRIVATE roads, further public roads can be funded exclusively with user fees which I have no problems with, as if your using the road you should pay for them, however they should not be funded with Income Taxation, Property Taxation, etc.

>functioning traffic signals and signs

See Above

>groomed parks,

Parks are not a proper role of government, I have never used a City Park, have no desire to use a City Park, and my money should not be stolen from me to pay for a city park

>trash collection (some places),

I have a private collection service that I pay monthly

>up to sixteen years of education,

Calling government schooling an "education" is laughable at best

>enforcement of workplace safety standards,

A System of Strict liability would be better for that

>financial protection if you become suddenly disabled,

I have private Long and Short term disability insurance, even if I did not that should be done via community charities not through the forced taking of other peoples money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

> a legal system in which to resolve disputes.

The legal system should be paid for by the people that make use of it.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#143

Post by anonymoushn »

rwl wrote: post #139
anonymoushn wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's check out the federal budget! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_categor... 19.63% for generational theft, which I pay into but will never see a penny of. 18.74% chiefly for killing brown people on the other side of the planet, generally people who were not a threat to the U.S. 16.13% for programs that are like basic income except that they create awful incentives, are vulnerable to fraud, and…

This is exactly the same rhetorical fallacy that thecodeore made, and that I think is damaging and dishonest to propagate. Which government do you live under that subjects you to an "annual mugging"? Do you really not see a relevant difference between taxation and being forced to give up your money at gunpoint? We can agree that some of the actual budget allocations of our governments are not ideal. That's not the po…

>Which government do you live under that subjects you to an "annual mugging"? Do you really not see a relevant difference between taxation and being forced to give up your money at gunpoint?

I live in the United States. If I do not pay my taxes, I will be kidnapped. If I resist kidnapping, I will be murdered. This is why I pay my taxes. I do not pay my taxes because I want to kill brown people on the other side of the planet, or because I believe that a government has a right to unilaterally create obligations on my behalf (and for ten years after I renounce my citizenship!), or because I believe marijuana users should be locked up and sodomized.

Given that we will not rid ourselves of taxation in the near future, some ways of spending that money are better than others, and it's worthwhile to talk about that. There may even be a few policies that are so beneficial that they justify theft.

Edit: I suppose the actual useful difference in perspectives here is about how the policy debate should look. I believe that each policy decision that increases or maintains spending should have to overcome the weight of the injustice inherent in funding it. Many other people believe that there is no such injustice, so policies that provide only a mild benefit when compared to privately allocating the same funds should also be implemented.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#144

Post by thecodeore »

georgefox wrote: post #124
Houshalter wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I invite you, sometime, to think about which services you really use, and try to figure out how much it would cost to purchase each of them if you were doing so on your own. Don't forget: police protection, fire protection, military protection, paved roads, functioning traffic signals and signs, groomed parks, trash collection (some places), up to sixteen years of education, enforcement of workplace safety standards…

> First of all the comment he was replying to was talking about services like housing, transportation, and healthcare, which already are provided by the market and aren't really things the government has any advantage in. As for all the stuff it does pay for, at best it costs exactly the same amount as you have to pay in taxes. But the government spends money on a lot of other things with your taxes that don't really…

There is multiple reasons for this, and none of them support the conclusion that "government-run" healthcare is better.

The Current US System is the Worst possible system a culmination of decades of government interference in both employment laws which is irrevocably linked health "insurance" with employment and turned "insurance" into a services prepayment pozi scheme.

Government run systems control costs by having a Fixed Budget, which means each year they outlay X dollars, so if for example there are 100,000 Hip Replacements budgeted for the year, and your Number 100,001 well your SOL. This is called rationing... this is one way government control costs. the other is ignoring or limiting patents for drug companies, so drugs cost less overseas then in the US. There are 1000's of things like this that make the government run systems appear "cheaper".

Cost is not the only factor though, Quality of Care is very important and the US still has more Health Tourists than any other nation... there is a Reason for that.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#145

Post by anigbrowl »

cinquemb wrote: post #137
anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but because everyone wants their local government to be independent from big bad state and federal governments there's almost no consistency in the format or publication requirements.

Right, so everyone in this case are local bureaucrats who are partially employed by big bad state and federal governments through handouts from taxation and monetary inflation, who don't want to show if the emperor of their local debt obligations aren't wearing any clothes (possibly because of what recognition of misallocation of resources/labor entails), because the public is not demanding it from them today? There'…

No, everyone includes all the people who live in a district that complain about too much government and object to things like national curricula or accounting standards or whatever. That can include bureaucrats but isn't necessarily limited to them.

This sort of thing is one of my interests and I even sort of enjoy digging through budget documents to root out these nuggets of information. Financial analysts and people like that do it too, but most of the general public is just not all that interested in such details. I used to think that if you simply put the information in front of people, a lightbulb would pop on over their head and they'd start demanding fiscal accountability. Turns out, much like environmental, development, and other long-term issues, that a lot of people feel overwhelmed and just tune out completely.

If it was just a matter of making the information available, then The Economist would be the most widely read newspaper.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#146

Post by jrockway »

thecodeore wrote: post #142
rwl wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, you're trolling here, and if I could downvote you for it, I would; but since I can't, let me try to raise the level of discussion: > I would prefer to pay for services I use I invite you, sometime, to think about which services you really use, and try to figure out how much it would cost to purchase each of them if you were doing so on your own. Don't forget: police protection, fire protection, military protectio…

I do not believe, support, or accept "democracy" or mob rule. I do not believe the "majority" has the moral right to lay claim to my labor or the product there of, nor tell me how to live my life. I believe in Non-Aggression Principle and the voluntary exchange of goods and services You are correct in I do not exist in an island, however I do VOLUNTARILY exchange my labor for goods and services, this is society, not…

I see today was your 15th birthday and your parents finally let you onto the Internet. Congratulations.

That said, there are a number of externalities that you're not thinking of. The simplest is: without a government, what's to stop someone from walking into your house and killing you? Every incentive says they should: free money, no consequences.

Another is: if we privatize everything, then only the wealthy get the benefits of having a society. Privatized workplace safety enforcement, for example, would ensure that only those rich enough to afford a lawsuit could get justice if injured in an unsafe environment. That's just stupid.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#147

Post by velodrome »

consz wrote: post #109
velodrome wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should create a tax for lawyers. They are far less productive than engineers -- all they do is argue all day and not create anything of value.

>They are far less productive than engineers -- all they do is argue all day and not create anything of value. Proof? This is worthless of a statement as "[Lawyers] are far less productive than engineers -- all they do is read reddit all day and not create anything of value."

STEM, by nature, makes people more productive. Wheel, Bicycle, Train, Car, Airplane.

The more productive people are, the more wealth can be generated.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42530.pdf

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#148

Post by cinquemb »

anigbrowl wrote: post #145
cinquemb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so everyone in this case are local bureaucrats who are partially employed by big bad state and federal governments through handouts from taxation and monetary inflation, who don't want to show if the emperor of their local debt obligations aren't wearing any clothes (possibly because of what recognition of misallocation of resources/labor entails), because the public is not demanding it from them today? There'…

No, everyone includes all the people who live in a district that complain about too much government and object to things like national curricula or accounting standards or whatever. That can include bureaucrats but isn't necessarily limited to them. This sort of thing is one of my interests and I even sort of enjoy digging through budget documents to root out these nuggets of information. Financial analysts and peopl…

Fair enough.

My interests in trying to work with data like this came from my difficulty in finding data I could mine "easily" on municipal/city bonds as apposed to equity funds portfolio companies.

Part of me thinks that if some people were given a set of tools or a place they could go where they could make an more informed decision (with clicks of buttons and simple displays) about their 401k's, Roth IRAs, 403 B's or whatever investments they make if they don't trust typical fund managers, that they would be able to see there are tradeoffs to be made for their own fiscal stability. There seems to be a lot of interest with this surrounding micro finance /loans, but that is just one part of the equation.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#149

Post by bostonpete »

jbooth wrote: post #110
twoodfin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's in the top fifth of per capita tax burden: http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-tax-collections-capit... Part of that is having both a sales and an income tax. Some states have one or the other.

Apples and Oranges. I'm talking rates, you're talking dollars. People in MA make and spend more money than people in Alabama, so you'd have a higher per-capita tax burden even with lower rates in MA. Per capita income minus dollars taxed or the ratio of the two might be a better measure than either of ours for what you're trying to get at. Point being, the rates are low and could easily be added to without dumb-ass i…

Whether the sale of customized software is subject to sales tax or exempt, you're going to have "industry specific things like this".

This sort of software is in something of a hazy middle ground between shrink-wrapped software on the shelf and IT consulting services. Taxing it may seem dumb to us when compared with other states, but probably seems like a reasonable move to at least consider to most.

Re: The Massachusetts Software Tax

#150

Post by woah »

brokenmusic wrote: post #115
crazygringo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If taxes are theft, then your use of roads, police, courts, eating at restaurants approved by health inspectors, and much more -- that's all theft of your own. Sorry, but taxes are not theft in any general way, by any stretch of the imagination.

If only I was paid 1 satoshi every time someone brings up roads, police and all that stuff when I say taxes are theft, I'd have more than Satoshi has. Just try to imagine how a society without a government could function and still have all the things we currently have. Try to come up with solutions. Think about the demand side of the equation. Just for once, try to imagine how to organize things in a world where it's…

I would probably round up some local thugs, give them guns, and rule with an iron fist. JK. But you know someone would.
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