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Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

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Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#141

Post by mjn »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #134
mjn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly blame the common man for that. Introverted people focused on a specific subject, such as pure-math research, tend to go where society deems it beneficial for them to go. So you are good at math, but you need to eat. Where does society think it's useful for a mathematician to apply his or her skills? Well, our society gives the NSA substantial funding, which it devotes in part to hiring mathematicians. The re…

So you are good at math, but you need to eat. I'm good at cunnilingus, and yet I need to eat, too! What to do, what do do... Do you know the story by Thoreau in "Walden" about the basket weaving indian? Also, while I agree that something like math research is ultimately benefitting all, this doesn't really apply when it's done for spooks, since those tend to sit on it. So if math is all you're good at, and if you pos…

My point was that if there is a structural problem, looking for structural solutions is a better angle than moralizing. If mathematicians are working for the NSA, instead of yelling at mathematicians, I'd want to ask, what is causing mathematicians to work for the NSA, and what would change that?

Same reason that, if you think gentrification is problematic, yelling "die yuppie scum!" at the poor schmucks trying to find a decent apartment in an overpriced area isn't either an effective or an intellectually sound strategy. Instead, one ought to look at the structural forces producing gentrification, i.e. the developers and capital movements.

An article on that subject: http://jacobinmag.com/2013/05/the-fucking-hipster-show/

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#142

Post by rbanffy »

Kylekramer wrote: post #33
mikeash wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no sympathy. They willingly represent the organization. Nobody is forcing them to stay. They could leave, but they don't, thus implicitly accepting it.

I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news report about how 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck last week. I'd argue saying "they could leave" assumes a lot.

> I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people.

Convenience over principles is what got us here.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#143

Post by rbanffy »

malandrew wrote: post #53

Posted in the other thread about this[0]: "This was a fun read and it seams like many people could just DDoS the recruiting efforts of the NSA and CIA by showing up to recruiting sessions and playing devil's advocates. If you are well informed and good at internet arguing, you are well equipped to attend these recruiting sessions. At the very least it would plant the seeds of cognitive dissonance in the minds of ever…

> my suggestion here is not meant to prevent either the CIA or NSA from doing their jobs

Quite the contrary. The conclusion of your suggestion is the CIA and the NSA actually doing the job they need to do rather than making more enemies to a country that has already amassed an impressive amount of them.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#144

Post by wissler »

angersock wrote: post #133
wissler wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Associating "introverted" with "immoral"?

Nothing immoral about being introverted--however, you don't get points for being exposed to mainstream society and forming relationships.

Yes but you get points for being introspective, which is essential to being moral.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#145

Post by sliverstorm »

koalakid wrote: post #132
droopyEyelids wrote: post #38

I have a trick I feel would make a confrontation like this better. Always speak under the assumption that the other person is 'good'. That means not calling them a liar. Instead, ask the questions that you feel would expose the inconsistency. That way they show everyone the point you're trying to make. Also it prevents personal animosity from obscuring the real content you might discover. Furthermore, it allows a 3rd…

Strongly disagree. The student was interested in getting to the point, not listening to NSA duckspeak. She had something to say and said it clearly and boldly. Exactly the opposite of NSA's deception and obfuscation.

So was the student trying to make a point, or get to the point of a question? Because trying to make a point against a recruiter for a little sound byte on soundcloud is bullshit and contributes nothing, while phrasing your question in a way that maximizes the sense of confrontation or personal assault is an excellent way to ensure you don't get your question answered.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#147

Post by krichman »

DannyBee wrote: post #116
robbiemitchell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the purpose of the trial itself is to determine guilt or innocence. I'm suggesting that the purpose of a legal system like ours is to ensure everyone's right to a fair trial in the first place; more generally, our goal is to ensure that innocent people are not put in jail. Defense lawyers make sure that guilt, if determined, is done legally and that sentencing is arrived at fairly. If a defendant wants to skip t…

No, actually, the purpose of our legal system is to have some fair form of crime and punishment system. A fair trial is not a purpose, it's a means to an end (punishing people fairly). It is not even a necessary component. The only reason it exists at all is because of our inability to objectively determine guilt in most cases. The rest are tacked on (IE determinations of what crime has been committed. Even this woul…

Well let's first assume that the client not only admitted that he did it but also really did it.

The system is best served by not being allowed to randomly put whomever in jail for whatever [1]. So we would require the prosecution present legally-obtained evidence that the defendant has committed a crime to establish that fact. Defence attorneys are to ensure that there is a fair fight because we cannot expect all of the accused to be legally savvy. To make this effective, the defence must be able to speak to them in confidence, ergo attorney-client privilege. So the defendant admits to his lawyer that he killed a woman. If the state is overreaching on charges, let's say murder one when he did it on a whim, he actually should not be convicted of it. Giving a good defence is supposed to ensure that when an accused is convicted they are convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. "Better one thousand guilty walk free..."

Also in that case the defence would likely advise the culprit to admit guilt to a second or third-degree murder.

[1] Although I don't think it's succeeding very well at this due to overreach by the states as far as charging too much to get a plea bargain.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#148

Post by rmrfrmrf »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #125
Kylekramer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.

Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option. As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with…

1. Omniscience is a commodity now? Please let me know where I can find out all of the information (past, present, and future) about every company I may want to work for -- maybe this database you have access to also has information on what my salary will be a few years from now so I can plan out exactly how many children I want to have. This knowledge base you have access to also lets me know if and when I will lose any job I'm holding at any point in the future, right? I wouldn't want something, uh, unexpected, to occur after having children. Those pesky things -- you just can't seem to take them back!

2. The "ethics" of the NSA can be changed by Congress at any time. Why direct your energy at relatively low-level employees when you (assuming you're a US citizen) have the power to effect change top-down?

3. Vice is not a reputable source. It's actually comical that you'd use them of all publications as a source considering that their claim to fame is conspiring with one of the most totalitarian regimes in history (NK) for press and pageviews.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#149

Post by gcb0 »

tzs wrote: post #99
calebhc wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So help me God" should be omitted since it doesn't even make any coherent sense. Might as well say "So help me snorkleflurp". Edit: The reason I say that phrase doesn't make any sense is because "God" has so many inconsistent, incoherent definitions that it seems nonsensical to request help from it. No idea what "God" even is.

It makes sense. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_help_me_God

that's a recursive argument.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#150

Post by gcb0 »

phaus wrote: post #97
ajuc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even atheists must do the part with God?

When I joined the military, I was given the option to take the pledge without a reference to God. I suspect the same option is given to people in any government organization.

but try to say So help me [allah|budah|spagetti] to see what happens.

no religion is for the soul. it's all about control.

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